I'm going to reiterate what I said in response to @tootalls, here--but I'm also going to asterisk it, because I'm reconsidering it, too: I don't think Natsuo is being self-aware, here, so much as backpeddling in response to Rui to diffuse blame. (Kind of like when you diplomatically say, "Well, I could have reacted better" when someone you had a fight with apologizes for being a jerk.)
Now, my argument, here, is that I really don't think Natsuo has the sense of self that would be necessary to come to that conclusion in a genuine way. Out of guilt or self-doubt? Sure, I can totally see him pulling out that platitude. But he was insistent--the whole time--that Hina liked him back. No way does he really think he forced her, one-sidedly, into anything.
Further, we get this confirmation from Hina in their afterglow segment: "I realized that my feelings had intensified and reached the point of no return when I saw you kissing Rui that time, but when I look back...it started when we talked often on the school's rooftop. At that time, I was still with Shuu-san and you were a student and I just thought it was more 'like' than 'love.'" So, again, she liked him the whole time, just as he thought.
BUT...here's the asterisk: this confirmational conversation comes (obviously) after the scene with Rui. So it is more than possible that he--at the moment of saying it to Rui--believes this might be the reality of the situation...in that it could be born of very recent doubt at Hina's enthusiasm over their relationship (because she is still clearly hesitating, even though she's in it).
Because, of course, he then basically asks her to marry him, on the trip. Which...seems to me less of an admission of unfairly pressuring someone into something than an affirmation in the belief that they're really in love.
Than again, I never got with my hot teacher, so what do I know.
That Hina quote, above, would be her liking/loving two different people at the same time.
I'm going to reiterate what I said in response to @tootalls, here--but I'm also going to asterisk it, because I'm reconsidering it, too: I don't think Natsuo is being self-aware, here, so much as backpeddling in response to Rui to diffuse blame. (Kind of like when you diplomatically say, "Well, I could have reacted better" when someone you had a fight with apologizes for being a jerk.)
Now, my argument, here, is that I really don't think Natsuo has the sense of self that would be necessary to come to that conclusion in a genuine way. Out of guilt or self-doubt? Sure, I can totally see him pulling out that platitude. But he was insistent--the whole time--that Hina liked him back. No way does he really think he forced her, one-sidedly, into anything.
Further, we get this confirmation from Hina in their afterglow segment: "I realized that my feelings had intensified and reached the point of no return when I saw you kissing Rui that time, but when I look back...it started when we talked often on the school's rooftop. At that time, I was still with Shuu-san and you were a student and I just thought it was more 'like' than 'love.'" So, again, she liked him the whole time, just as he thought.
BUT...here's the asterisk: this confirmational conversation comes (obviously) after the scene with Rui. So it is more than possible that he--at the moment of saying it to Rui--believes this might be the reality of the situation...in that it could be born of very recent doubt at Hina's enthusiasm over their relationship (because she is still clearly hesitating, even though she's in it).
Because, of course, he then basically asks her to marry him, on the trip. Which...seems to me less of an admission of unfairly pressuring someone into something than an affirmation in the belief that they're really in love.
Than again, I never got with my hot teacher, so what do I know.
That Hina quote, above, would be her liking/loving two different people at the same time.
I think it's possible that both things are true. The reason he told Rui that was so Rui doesn't overlook Natsuo in the equation and just blame Hina, but he wasn't lying when he said it. Even though Hina liked him, the sensible part of her brain was telling herself that it wasn't in her best interest to have that kind of relationship. So even with the feelings there, nothing would have ever happened if Natsuo didn't repeatedly force the issue............and as I watched him forced the issue, he was annoying me as he was very pushy and stubborn about it.
And yes, I'll even say not only did he forced the situation they're in, he forced his feelings on her like he said. even though she liked him from the rooftop scene, he liked her a lot longer, and approached her driven by his feelings blabbering crap to her a typical student viewing her as a teacher never would have. He put himself in the position of comforter when she was having a shaky relationship with Shuu...that was just the beginning.
Later.........He FORCED a kiss on her.........(not only has he mind fucked her, he actually threw himself on her physically without consent)
Later...............HE forced her to break up with Shuu out of jealousy when Shuu still ranked higher in her heart.
Later...................With Shuu out of the way he not only confesses his love, but gives her a FUCKING NOVEL about his love for her. Normal people write notes, this guy wrote a damn novel. I'm not gonna underestimate the impact that alone had on moving Hina.
And then.............. try as she might to escape him that festival night, like a fucking mosquito this dude buzzed around her ass until she finally stopped so he could suck her blood.
In all of this it was all push, not pull except for when she invited him out, that was a bit of a pull, though he was already in her head by the time that happened. And I can't say her intent on that date was to kick things off considering that's when he confessed, and she rejected him. I think her intent WAS to find out if he was in love with her though, she invited him on that date right after Shuu told her that he noticed Natsuo was in love with her.
Ha! First off, I absolutely LOVE that we're doing a "Mio/Komiya will win!" flip-flop on Natsuo, here. I think we should make this an official part of any threads we become a part of in the future.
"Forcing the issue" and "forcing things one-sidedly" are not the same thing.
Hina is an adult. Natsuo didn't force her to do anything. She could have ignored him. Told him NO. Told him to f*** off. Let him down gently. Threatened him. Smacked him around. Ratted him out. Moved out and avoided him. Instead, SHE CONFESSED BACK.
His persistence was persistent not because he wouldn't take "no" for an answer, but because her reaction was always--ALWAYS--a "maaaaybe."
Remember the great "double suicide!" debate? My contention was that her reaction to his outright confession was bat**** crazy--because she was overcompensating for wanting to say YES.
And she literally never tells him the answer is "no," in that beach scene. Same with the forced kiss: she mounted him and all but dared him to f*** her. THAT'S NOT A "NO."
The counterargument, at the time (for both scenarios), was that Hina was trying to scare him off or make him feel inadequate/reveal him as a child in the face of his bold (adult) declarations--because he's too dense to just accept a flat-out rejection. I never believed that, but that argument would immediately negate a claim that Natsuo was self-aware enough to claim--genuinely--that Hina simply fell to his insistence. He can't be so dense that "NO" doesn't register but deep soul-searching revelations do.
Yes, Natsuo was always the one initiating, but so what? Going out on a date because someone keeps asking you out might be you giving in to pressure (good or bad), but continuing to date him isn't. That's entirely on you.
Hina kisses him at school. Hina gives him a key to her place. Hina straight-up IGNORES RUI'S FEELINGS. Not a single bit of that is because Natsuo did anything but give her the chance to say YES--and...she...took it.
He definitely forced the issue--but only because she...and I am gonna pause dramatically, here, because I cannot believe how appropriate this is...kept leaving the door open on the subject.
It's absolutely possible that he both believes what he's saying (genuinely, rather than because he feels bad for Rui) and is saying it to divert Rui's wrath. In fact, that would be a good reason to voice an unflattering sentiment.
I don't remember if he had a crush on her (in that vague way that we all get crushes on people we don't speak to but find attractive, in some way) before they started chatting on the roof, but I can't imagine he was into her all that much longer than she was into him. Once they started chatting--which started well before we saw any of it--the game was on, as it were.
That said, it doesn't matter if he liked her for years and she's liked him for three weeks. She still likes him.
but gives her a FUCKING NOVEL about his love for her. Normal people write notes, this guy wrote a damn novel. I'm not gonna underestimate the impact that alone had on moving Hina.
Yes, it's dramatic, but it only worked because she already liked him. She could just as easily have been moved by the grand gesture, said she was beyond flattered, but still turned him down. (Like, with the words "no, I don't feel the same way.")
And, further, even if she didn't feel anything for him before that moment, how is that forcing her into liking him? That's, like, basic wooing. He did something to impress her...and it worked. If he'd dressed in a smart suit, made a slew of flirty witticisms, and offered her a ride home in a snazzy sports car, would we have considered that "forcing her" to see him as dating material?
Again, I don't see how this matters. I mean, I get that you're saying he was the only one of the two who was making a fuss over them going out. I fully concede that. But not all relationships start with two people coyly trying to admit they like each other without either having to be bold and say it. Sometimes, someone just says it--maybe even out of the blue. And, sometimes, you say it more than once before something comes of it.
And...well, see my whole "maaaaaybe" point, in the first section.
Ha! First off, I absolutely LOVE that we're doing a "Mio/Komiya will win!" flip-flop on Natsuo, here. I think we should make this an official part of any threads we become a part of in the future.
Second:
"Forcing the issue" and "forcing things one-sidedly" are not the same thing.
Hina is an adult. Natsuo didn't force her to do anything. She could have ignored him. Told him NO. Told him to f*** off. Let him down gently. Threatened him. Smacked him around. Ratted him out. Moved out and avoided him. Instead, SHE CONFESSED BACK.
His persistence was persistent not because he wouldn't take "no" for an answer, but because her reaction was always--ALWAYS--a "maaaaybe."
Remember the great "double suicide!" debate? My contention was that her reaction to his outright confession was bat**** crazy--because she was overcompensating for wanting to say YES.
And she literally never tells him the answer is "no," in that beach scene. Same with the forced kiss: she mounted him and all but dared him to f*** her. THAT'S NOT A "NO."
The counterargument, at the time (for both scenarios), was that Hina was trying to scare him off or make him feel inadequate/reveal him as a child in the face of his bold (adult) declarations--because he's too dense to just accept a flat-out rejection. I never believed that, but that argument would immediately negate a claim that Natsuo was self-aware enough to claim--genuinely--that Hina simply fell to his insistence. He can't be so dense that "NO" doesn't register but deep soul-searching revelations do.
Yes, Natsuo was always the one initiating, but so what? Going out on a date because someone keeps asking you out might be you giving in to pressure (good or bad), but continuing to date him isn't. That's entirely on you.
Hina kisses him at school. Hina gives him a key to her place. Hina straight-up IGNORES RUI'S FEELINGS. Not a single bit of that is because Natsuo did anything but give her the chance to say YES--and...she...took it.
He definitely forced the issue--but only because she...and I am gonna pause dramatically, here, because I cannot believe how appropriate this is...kept leaving the door open on the subject.
It's absolutely possible that he both believes what he's saying (genuinely, rather than because he feels bad for Rui) and is saying it to divert Rui's wrath. In fact, that would be a good reason to voice an unflattering sentiment.
I just don't think it's true.
I don't remember if he had a crush on her (in that vague way that we all get crushes on people we don't speak to but find attractive, in some way) before they started chatting on the roof, but I can't imagine he was into her all that much longer than she was into him. Once they started chatting--which started well before we saw any of it--the game was on, as it were.
That said, it doesn't matter if he liked her for years and she's liked him for three weeks. She still likes him.
...so?
Yes, it's dramatic, but it only worked because she already liked him. She could just as easily have been moved by the grand gesture, said she was beyond flattered, but still turned him down. (Like, with the words "no, I don't feel the same way.")
And, further, even if she didn't feel anything for him before that moment, how is that forcing her into liking him? That's, like, basic wooing. He did something to impress her...and it worked. If he'd dressed in a smart suit, made a slew of flirty witticisms, and offered her a ride home in a snazzy sports car, would we have considered that "forcing her" to see him as dating material?
Again, I don't see how this matters. I mean, I get that you're saying he was the only one of the two who was making a fuss over them going out. I fully concede that. But not all relationships start with two people coyly trying to admit they like each other without either having to be bold and say it. Sometimes, someone just says it--maybe even out of the blue. And, sometimes, you say it more than once before something comes of it.
And...well, see my whole "maaaaaybe" point, in the first section.
I think we're interpreting "forcing my feelings on her" in two different ways.
The way I see it is "I love you -monday I love you Tuesday etc...............I love you -saturday 3 years later, now we're dating. In short, the annoying persistence.
The way you see those words seem to be to the tune of magic, or hypnotism into feeling something that isn't real or genuine.
I don't think her reciprocation isn't genuine, but I don't think she was so much for the idea that they were bound to be together. Like in SHuu's case, he probably had her at Helo.......Natsuo didn't have her until the thousandth "HI" ala Stewie Griffin.
There are people that don't feel anything for someone, get confessed to, and then start thinking.......... next thing, they're in love, not fake love, real love. When Hina started liking him, if it's genuine isn't where my focus is, It's the why, And it's because Natsuo is pushy as fuck when he wants something.
The moment Hina referred to on the roof top was likely before the timeline of event we were shown started, but from what we were shown, we have a good idea of Natsuo's character, so I can make an educated guess on the parameters of said discussions on the roof. Now, listen closely class and envision these events:
Natsuo really loves his teacher Hina, his friends like her, but are more realistic with their approach and openly flirt with her in a harmless playful manner while Natsuo watches from the sidelines not taking part of it.
Natsuo loves her so much, he basically stalked her in the school halls and learned her tendencies.
We have learned that Hina likes to go to the roof to vent when she's feeling down, not with the intent of talking to natsuo, but to calm herself in silence looking off into the distance.
Natsuo noticed this trend and decided he too would take a liking to the rooftop in hopes of catching Hina alone where he could really talk to her alone, and not just join in the the weightless flirting his friends do.
Overtime, Natsuo has found himself in the friend category with Hina, from what we're shown at least, her only close relations have been Rui, and Shuu, It doesn't seem like she particularly got along with other teachers since she went on the roof alone in the 1st place rather than talking to a staff member. So
Boom you're in, she "likes" him, though what other label can you give someone you regularly talk to? She probably "likes" alot of people, some people hold that word sacred, others that make a clear separation of that word and love don't tend to put much thought in who gets that label. And generally people tend to "like" the people they call friends.
Natsuo However, is not fond of the friend zone, or the "like" zone. Natsuo is in love, and will stop at nothing to be "loved". Which brings us to the rooftop scene we DID see. Hina's crying, in a vulnerable state dealing with SHuu's bullshit. In comes Natsuo trying to pry beyond that friend barrier. Hina's reaction to him at that time made it clear that she did not come there to be comforted by Natsuo, she was just there for some alone time.
His persistence ..........................well persisted until like finally turned into love, I'm not refuting if it's real love or not, but he kept forcing the love in the air. Notice that when he forced a kiss on her that was BEFORE the time frame that she outlined actually being in love with him. I guess that'd be fine fore those that hold "like" and "love" on the same pedestal, but Hina clearly separates the two. So maybe he didn't force her to "like" him, but to me he forced those love feelings to appear, over a long time of over the top persistence. a confession........that's normal. Break someone up with their boyfriend, force a kiss on them, write them a novel.............these are just extreme things piling on top of each other.
"Oh, hey, mom. I just found out that my stepbrother is banging our sister. And I know that because we also banged and we regularity make out. No big deal. We're a happy little family."
He keeps calling her Sensei, and that somehow makes it even worse.
"This will be the last time." Yeah, right. Totally believable.
"I'm going to start disliking you." Whoa. Easy there, Spock.
"You'll get to see me, your teacher, is a speedo." Seriously, what is wrong with this school? Who hires these teachers?
Please tell me there's a huge explosion coming that will kill them all before they lay eggs. I honestly can't tell who I hate the most at this point. I probably don't even hate Hina that much anymore, because the other two somehow managed to be even worse.
The conversation after omfg.
"You saw me?"
YOU. LEFT. THE. FUCKING. DOORS. OPEN.
"I watched you doing the do, moaning another man's name, and then I jerked off afterwards." "Wow, so romantic. We're soulmates."
The crux of our disagreement seems to be two elements of one issue: whether Natsuo is "self-aware" and whether he "forced one-sidedly" his feelings for Hina.
Now, I say that it is one issue because, as I see it, the "forcing" part can only connect to the "self-awareness" part if he was, in fact, literally compelling Hina to be with him. Because Natsuo is saying "don't blame her--it was all me!" which, in order to work as a method to alleviate Hina's perceived guilt, would mean that he made Hina date him, that she has no agency in their coupling. And that simply isn't the case.
As I said in an earlier post, I can believe that--out of self-doubt because of Hina's "let's take it slow"--Natsuo thinks he may have forced Hina into this situation (not that he is somehow aware of his behavior***, but that he's trying to after-the-fact explain why they aren't banging already).
If that is the case, though, I would argue that there is nothing leading up to that (so-called) admission to Rui to have indicated that he was feeling this way. (The last thing that happened before the Rui bit in Ep 10 was making out on the floor, which, as I have said repeatedly, is not something you do if you don't want to*****.
***though, recall, I don't think he behaved that way
*****cough Natsuo likes Rui cough cough
Again, she could have discouraged him--forced him--to relent at any time. She could have stopped going to the roof. She could have stopped being flirty with him when they did talk on the roof. She could have said NO or slapped him or etc etc etc. Instead, it was all "maaaaaybe."
HINA: Well, children are outside my field of interest. But...a nice boy may be an exception. [wink] Just kidding!
(I mean...come on, talk about having your cake and eating it too!)
No, there's "hey we're pals"-liking and then there's like-liking.
You don't maaaaaybe your pals.
If she did, if she "likes" a lot of people, as you say, that four-hour drinking binge at a place that she apparently frequents (bartender calls her "Hina-chan") would absolutely not have been spent alone--platonically or otherwise.
As I said before, that she would finally relent to his advances is one thing--and, at that point, it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that he kind of pushed her into it (even if she still had the ability to say NO). That she would keep going implies that she's making the choice on her own. Which is what happened--and, importantly, happened before the scene with Rui.
That she didn't make an open move toward asking him out, that she had to actively reach a point where her reluctance was outweighed by her interest, that he's the one who kept asking for a change in their status is just...well, it's just how dating starts, sometimes.
Again, he may have forced her to consider it as more than a passing fancy, but that's not the same as her "giving in" to his feelings--especially not when we know for a fact that she was interested to begin with.
Except we actually do know how everything started and how it went.
Per Ep 1, he was on the roof, his novel draft got blown over, and Hina (who was, 'til then, out of his line of sight) was there to pick up the pages. And they spent a year chatting up there, from time to time, when they both happened to be up there. And she was probably--and I admit this is extrapolation on my part--flirting with him, more and more, the whole time.
The crying scene you talk about is the second time they roof-meet in Ep 1, and he's going up there to write, not in the hopes that she's there. (He says exactly that in some otherwise unnecessary expository narration to himself as he climbs the stairs, specifically to let us know that's what's up. Hina just happens to already be there.) And, okay, he was looking to get closer to her by being a shoulder to cry on, but it's not like the gesture itself guarantees anything.
Ironically, this assertion, it seems to me, is you saying he used hypnosis-like powers on her. That somehow she was obligated to "fall in love" with him because he did these things.
Literally each one of these things is only an effective POSITIVE if she's already interested in him. Otherwise--biiiiiig red flags.
Also...did you know that Creepy-sensei is right there in Ep 1? They literally tell us the rumor is that he's, well, deserving of the nickname "Creepy-sensei."
So? randomly kissing someone is sexual assault............you act like that's acceptable behavior...........
all in all it still boils down to 2 interpretations to you it implies it's hypnotism and Hina has a gun to her head. If that's what forcing his feelings on her means, then that's not what happened.
To me, it's Natsuo has a wheel barrel full of feelings, and repeatedly dumps it on her head, She didn't blatantly reject him, but she DID reject him more than once. As she told him to stop butting in her affairs, he smacks one on her...........and DID Slap him. "Stop butting in my affairs" "This has nothing to do with you" clear messages to FUCK OFF from my perspective, and he's like fuck that, take these feelings. So if forcing your feelings on someone is ignoring the clear hints to fuck off "A relationship with you isn't in my best interest even though I like you", And just keep pushing on the wall until it falls. then that's exactly what happened.
The "wall" Hina put up wasn't the strongest, but you can't deny that it was indeed there, and Natsuo kicked that shit in with force. So to me, Natsuo was indeed self aware because what he told Rui was exactly how I saw the events unfold. It's in line with what I said, I liked Natsuo as a character in his interactions with everyone except Hina, With Hina involved, he was So pushy and irrational, that it annoyed me just looking at it.
She gives him a key to her apartment so he can stop by whenever he wants. And she seemed more than a little agreeable when she woke up to find him hovering over her, unexpectedly.
She's not iffy on wanting him around--romantically. And he's given her reasons to be iffy, if she wants them.
A weak wall would be her tolerating his expressions of interest in her, sidestepping them rather than rebuffing them, because she doesn't want to upset their friendship by giving in to their romantic desires.
What she did was encourage his advances and then back away each time she was about to relent, which is essentially putting up a wall with a big window in it so he could see her getting into the shower every night.
My point being that he can't be self-aware about something that isn't true.
Natsuo says it was all him, which he either decided is the case because it explains Hina's "take it slow" (and revealing which helps him shift Rui's blame) or just because he's just trying to get Rui not to be mad at Hina.
Now, this either/or is, I think, arguably a matter of interpretation. What is not is that neither of those scenarios indicates self-awareness.
Which was the point that kicked all of this off on Friday: is this line from Natsuo him showing self-awareness or not? And, to me, it's clearly not.
Because Natsuo's not arrived at that statement by taking a look back at his behavior. At best, he's rationalizing something that happened after his declarations were made and affirmed--and that, at the time he says it, is still based on unconfirmed supposition.
Why does the lack of confirmation matter, in that instance? Because we find out later that Hina's hesitation is about her and not about him. As in, she wanted to say yes but also knew it would be dangerous for her.
I understand that. And I'm not saying you're wrong about it.
I am saying that it's wrong to think him being a teenage dumbass counts as forcing his feelings on Hina. (And it certainly doesn't mean that he forced her into submitting to his feelings (which is what his statement to Rui expresses).)
Especially since--and I will repeat this until the cows come home--she always liked him back. Which is why he was given so many chances to dump his barrel full of feelings onto her head in the first place.
She gives him a key to her apartment so he can stop by whenever he wants. And she seemed more than a little agreeable when she woke up to find him hovering over her, unexpectedly.
She's not iffy on wanting him around--romantically. And he's given her reasons to be iffy, if she wants them.
The order in which the events took place has to be considered, this highlighted point is irrelevant because it occurred at a time they were basically a couple after caving into those feelings.
Mounting Natuo also happened AFTER she put up enough signs that a normal person would have backed off. lets look at the events.
#1 NAtsuo butts into details of her life she didn't intend to share with him.
#2 She tells him to leave
#3 She tells him it has nothing to do with him.
#4 She forcibly attempts to remove him out of her room by pushing him, but can't cause females tend to be weak and shit.
#5 Natsuo moves in and kissed her.
The mounting part is irrelevant because it didn't precede the forced kiss. You can't make a point that her mounting him encouraged him to force himself on her because that came after, and it came after hints that would make a normal person leave failed, and then that mount "you're just a child" shit proved more affective at making Natsuo back off her and turn his attention elsewhere. At that point, he wasn't even trying anymore, BUT all his efforts had already taken hold of Hina, and when she saw him kissing Rui she realized herself it was too late for her. Then he saw weakness in the wall and started dumping his feelings again.
As for the blame game. I guess you can say he was about 80% right to blame himself. Hina could have done more to prevent the relationship, so she's partially guilty. BUT if Natsuo ever respected her enough to listen to her nothing would have ever happened between them, He's mostly responsible for forcing the issue. And he Said not to blame Hina because HE KNEW how much signs and words suggesting he give up he ignored. HE KNEW if it was up to Hina, their relationship would have never reached the point it got to.
Oh, you mean the bit where she puts on a fake smile and uses a bunch of insincere (if lined with some truth*) patter about how it's a "grownup thing" that a "child" wouldn't understand?
Sure, kissing her would not have been my go-to move, but he's calling her on her crap. And then she slaps him, yes. And then he...oh, he seems to be backing off: apologizing, looking ashamed, and--
Oh dear--and then she grabs him, tongue-kisses him for a minute, and then mounts him, ripping open his shirt.
She could have just yelled at him. She could have played his guilt and gotten him to leave, tail between his legs. But she kisses him. And mounts him.
She's right that it's none of his damn business.
He's "right" in that...well, I mean, she shouldn't be having an affair, as a rule, but he's "right" in that she'd been sending him signals that she was interested in him, this whole time. So...why wouldn't he say something?
(She is also devastated when he won't talk to her, after the running-away-from-home incident. Just...as a side note, there.)
But it was up to Hina. She could have said NO--then NO--then NO NO NO. You are absolving her of her role in saying YES. (Or, well, 80% of it.)
She's not obligated to reciprocate or give in or admit her feelings or whatever you want to call it. It was her choice to do so.
It is irrelevant whether Natsuo asked her twice or 3000 times. She still said YES. And, infinitely more importantly, she continued to say YES--and, when he gave her a chance to back out (right before they kiss at school), she flatly tells him to stop that kind of talk because it's not true.
HINA: It's precisely because I want to take good care of our relationship that I'm being cautious. My feelings are the same as yours, Natsuo-kun. I want you to have no doubts about that.
Using Love is War as an example, for a moment:
Kaguya and Miyuki aren't going out because neither of them will ask the other. In fact, they both outwardly claim not to be interested in the other.
I said that her mounting him was her not-sending him a NO--like, generally. As in, another one in the "maaaybe" column. Because it's irrational to do something sexual, in that case. Just like it was irrational to march into the sea. Overcompensation because she really, really wants to give in to her feelings and reciprocate.
And since when was this a discussion about whether or not that kiss was justified?
It is irrelevant whether Natsuo asked her twice or 3000 times. She still said YES. And, infinitely more importantly, she continued to say YES--and, when he gave her a chance to back out (right before they kiss at school), she flatly tells him to stop that kind of talk because it's not true.
Once again this took place after she was already trapped in the web, At that point, the spider can show you the direction of the door, but you can't just up and walk through it.
I said that her mounting him was her not-sending him a NO--like, generally. As in, another one in the "maaaybe" column. Because it's irrational to do something sexual, in that case. Just like it was irrational to march into the sea. Overcompensation because she really, really wants to give in to her feelings and reciprocate.
What can I say, Natsuo is a fuck shot, Ask him to fuck off, he doesn't fuck off, dare him to fuck you, he fucks off.............Basically, what you call irrational and perhaps mixed signaled ways of pushing Natsuo off, have been the only ways he's responded to by actually backing off with his barrel full of feelings. After her dare, he goes to smash Momo for nothing more than trying to forget Hina. He felt rejected, and that he had to move on. For the simple fact that that weird stuff worked to repel him, and physically pushing him and telling him to leave had the reverse affect, I really can't knock it, cause he's a fuck shot that has only responded to fucked up otherwise shitty signals.
I've not once implied anything Natsuo has done gave Hina no other choice but to..............aka feel obligated. Bcak to basics, she likes him, yes she didn't love him, but like is the first step, he kept dumping his barrel of feelings on her until like turned to love AKA forcing his feelings on her. And doing so despite the signals that did exist showing her reluctance for it to get there. While you're seeing the forcing feelings thing as hypnotism, or giving Hina an offer she can't refuse so to speak.
Once again this took place after she was already trapped in the web, At that point, the spider can show you the direction of the door, but you can't just up and walk through it.
Trapped? Seriously? Pansy-core Natsuo looking down at the ground like a dog that (appropriately) just got smacked on the nose had Hina so cornered that she had no choice but to...
[checks notes]
...sexy him away?
Even if that made sense--which it doesn't--why is she angry at herself when he leaves and not pissed at him? (Or has she been totally bamboozled, at this point, and is no longer capable of discerning her own emotions?)
I said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't buy it. He's stupid but he's not so stupid that a clear, definite answer wouldn't have done the same thing. "Natsuo--I don't love you, now stop it!" Party over. (Same argument about the beach scene.)
But she doesn't do that.
And she doesn't do that because she doesn't want to. She wants to avoid the conflict that could arise from starting a relationship with him but not cut it off so completely that she can't have a safe, flirty semi-relationship with him. Hina, until she admits her feelings to Natsuo, was all kinds of have-her-cake-and-eat-it-too, when it came to him.
I mean, of course his feelings being made openly clear affected her feelings--because that's what happens when two people like each other and then reveal such to each other. His assertions confirmed her own. She was trying not to confirm them, yes, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist before he said something.
I just...vocalizing his feelings isn't forcing her to...and, I mean, even by repeating it over and over, he didn't force her to feel any...
I mean, gosh.
Well, it seems we are most certainly at an impasse. Because, while I see what you mean in terms of him expressing his feelings whether she wanted to receive them or not, the fact of the matter is that she did want to receive them. She literally liked him as much as he liked her. And it was circumstance, not emotion, that was holding her back.
One last quote, this time from the festival scene where Hina admits her feelings (and why she's moving out), and then I drop it:
HINA: When I saw the two of you kissing...more than being worried our family would fall apart, my jealousy took over. If I stayed any longer with you, I wouldn't be able to hold back my feelings. I thought I had to leave before that happened. Something like this...Natsuo-kun, you might think, "But you're the one who rejected me," but...I had no choice! As an adult, I can't do things like Rui can! I kept telling myself that no, I can't, but it's getting harder and harder to lie to myself...
Anyway.
Only a few more days until the finale. And I am very excited to see what happens next.
And entirely furious that I can't buy a physical copy of this series.
Too much hard evidence and circumstantial evidence suggest this isn't true.
firstly, the hard evidence, as she's confiding what we only have reason to believe are her true feelings, She classified her feelings for Natsuo predating the Kiss with Rui as "like". While from the start of the show Natsuo has been head over heels in love with her.
Circumstantial, Can you imagine a scenario that Hina confesses to Natsuo, and he responds by putting up even the tiniest bit of playing hard to get? I can't, but that's the shit Hina did.
Too much hard evidence and circumstantial evidence suggest this isn't true.
firstly, the hard evidence, as she's confiding what we only have reason to believe are her true feelings, She classified her feelings for Natsuo predating the Kiss with Rui as "like". While from the start of the show Natsuo has been head over heels in love with her.
Circumstantial, Can you imagine a scenario that Hina confesses to Natsuo, and he responds by putting up even the tiniest bit of playing hard to get? I can't, but that's the shit Hina did.
She liked 'm since the start of the show, she was even thinking about 'm when she was with Shuu. As stated before, the kiss & the beach scene were a test to see if this is really what they both wanted, they both were struggling with the concept of the brother-sister relationship.
When Hina saw Natsuo with Rui, jealousy kicked in and she realized that she could be missing out due to her own approach. Rui was the one that pushed Hina over the line by saying that she didn't care about the brother-sister relationship since it wasn't by blood which was the thing that was holding Hina back.
It's hard to admit that you love somebody else while you're still hooking up with a dude... but she admitted that she already had 'm on the mind. So I really don't think there is much of a difference between loving or liking somebody with the way they're going about it. Rui's relationship was different with Natsuo since it happened before the whole brother-sister thing and Rui kept insisting that it wasn't a biggie.
If it wasn't for Rui, both Hina and Natsuo would be mastubating by themselves.
I do think there is, one big enough that people bother specifying between the two words. And basically the way people behave when affected by either word.
Love is basically all we've seen of Natsuo towards Hina, and in that state, he's done everything in his power to make good on that love. On the other hand there has been two Hina's. One that liked Natsuo's company, but made attempts to calm his interest in her and keep it at a certain level. A Hina That was genuinely excited to welcome Natsuo as part of her family because if it was gonna be a student, it may as well have been a student you enjoy the company of. Then we have the love struck Hina, giving Natsuo her apartment keys, and having risky make out sessions on the school campus.
There are similarities to both emotions, but love is far more powerful than like. And I believe what we're seeing from Rui's end is also love, But that feeling grew on it's own, it wasn't fertilized by Natsuo, well..............at least not intentionally. She Naturally fell in love with who Natsuo is, Hina naturally liked Natsuo, but was guided into loving him after repeatedly being dumped over the head with those wheel barrel loads of feelings.
I can't say for certain that Hina would have naturally progressed to that level without that guidance, for one thing, a big part of it was Natsuo breaker her and Shuu up. Humans are social creatures. Thanks to Natsuo and Rui, the one person that consumed the majority of Hina's thoughts had become an after thought, and Natsuo just happened to be the only other dog barking up that tree, 2nd place by default eventually slipped into the lead.
I do think there is, one big enough that people bother specifying between the two words. And basically the way people behave when affected by either word.
Love is basically all we've seen of Natsuo towards Hina, and in that state, he's done everything in his power to make good on that love. On the other hand there has been two Hina's. One that liked Natsuo's company, but made attempts to calm his interest in her and keep it at a certain level. A Hina That was genuinely excited to welcome Natsuo as part of her family because if it was gonna be a student, it may as well have been a student you enjoy the company of. Then we have the love struck Hina, giving Natsuo her apartment keys, and having risky make out sessions on the school campus.
There are similarities to both emotions, but love is far more powerful than like. And I believe what we're seeing from Rui's end is also love, But that feeling grew on it's own, it wasn't fertilized by Natsuo, well..............at least not intentionally. She Naturally fell in love with who Natsuo is, Hina naturally liked Natsuo, but was guided into loving him after repeatedly being dumped over the head with those wheel barrel loads of feelings.
I can't say for certain that Hina would have naturally progressed to that level without that guidance, for one thing, a big part of it was Natsuo breaker her and Shuu up. Humans are social creatures. Thanks to Natsuo and Rui, the one person that consumed the majority of Hina's thoughts had become an after thought, and Natsuo just happened to be the only other dog barking up that tree, 2nd place by default eventually slipped into the lead.
Even with love you have different levels, to me this is all puppy love.
Natsuo is blinded by his love for Hina and Hina is trying to think ahead but isn't sure where it'll be going. I think Rui might be truly in love with Natsuo but she knows that she's second best and that shit hurts... So I can understand her trying to keep a distance from 'm but she'll support the situation until something happens with Hina and Natsuo. I think we'll maybe see Rui get an opportunity to date other people but it'd be a similar type of affection that Rui was to Natsuo, a band aid relationship.
So I'm guessing Hina doesn't know how to handle the school and Natsuo situation and will probably crumble under the pressure. So it'll be interesting to see how this last episode plays out.
Spoiler tag this for the ones who haven't watched the episode yet.
Yeah, Natsuo's blonde friend seemed to be watching Natsuo with those "something's going on" eyes, but if he's behind the photo.........#1 he's not a real friend, #2 him or whoever took that photo most likely saw way more than just that kiss..........unless the angle they were viewing from conveniently couldn't see the bed.
Just finished this and it's not a terrible anime, but not all that great either. The plot itself is decent and has a unique spin on the brother/sister genre, plus isn't afraid to hit some uncomfortable areas. Unfortunately, though, there's a lot of throw-away characters you never hear from again, and even Rui isn't all that fleshed out (which sucks because she could have been really good) and is mostly bland, given the show tried to make her a part of this triangle. A lot of the plot seems forced in spots and even just stupid (like Hina's affair). The art was really good in spots and bland in others too. Overall I'd say it's not a bad show to watch and may be worth your time if you like this genre.
