interregnum
Well-Known Member
Leave this parallel thread I created specifically to keep you from infecting the real thread?
Of course not. That's why it's here.
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Rascal Does Not Dream of Bunny Girl Senpai
- Thread starter ZetsubouKaiji
- Start date
Of course not. That's why it's here.
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ACrankyOldMan
Well-Known Member
Kinda rewatched bits and pieces because I was messing with quite a scuffed file before.
So even though we all agree that this episode is extremely straight forward I do believe it's done with the purpose to just portrait how low Nodoka's self esteem really is. The shows creators have taken it upon themselves to challenge themselves in front of us to turn this into a likable character. And it may be a harder watch because we've not been introduced before but with Nodoka in this current state, I don't think we even wanted to see her in the other episodes. So should we be happy that the shows creators managed to deliver a weaker episode on purpose? Mai is now getting a good grasp of how horrible Nodoka's mother is and how much pressure is actually on her, so maybe my idea of how I imagined Nodoka to be can actually still come true if she learns how to stand up for herself.
The show has shown us with the Saki scene that they can take somebody who we've started to dislike and actually turn them into a likable character in one scene and I'm sure none of us are feeling a lot of joy for Nodoka right now, so we know they're very capable of doing so.
I still don't think it's the best episode we've seen, don't get me wrong but I do have a little bit more appreciation for it. I'm still very appreciative that the the show doesn't treat Mai as a Senjougahara and actually throws her in the middle of it all.
Also I'm taking back what I've said about what's behind the doors, it won't be Nodoka related things. Mai has a reputation to uphold so it'll be something to tease him since she feels she can't do it directly... I've mentioned this quite a few times already and it happens again in this episode where Mai starts off taking it into the lewd direction but she understood that she couldn't really reply back to what Sakuta said due to it being inappropriate. It actually bothered her quite a bit.
And I've had my thoughts about Mai being the one that actually caused this and it would have been an amazing plot twist but her sister was the one that seemed to have taken the first initiative to go see Mai and Mai actually seems to be less bothered by it while Nodoka literally feels like a heavily broken character. I was actually also pretty keen to see how they did the outro to this episode and Sakuta wasn't in it this time. I've been trying to weight out all the things Mai could want that Nodoka has but I don't think there are that many... unless it's the dad she doesn't have anymore or a mother that 'cared' to even check up on her.
Also I got the key scene wrong, for some reason I thought he was allowed to keep it but she's literally just standing there not knowing what to do, she's a caring older sister but really doesn't know how to fix it. This was actually the scene that made me think that it could have been another Mai's issue but the next scene with Nodoka kind of put the whole focus back on Nodoka. Still admiring her big sister, even though they're angry with each other at the time...
I feel the diaries are pretty good representations of how both the characters are. Chaotic and all over the place vs neat and tidy with a little playful element to it. I feel Nodoka does see herself still as a kid where her mother takes care of everything, I feel the house is a good representation of that. Nodoka is still heavily relying on others.
When Sakuta tells Nodoka to have a bath, she says don't peek. I was actually waiting for him to say "never, ever?" but due to her reaction I've gotten a bit icky with him actually going to have a look.
The show has shown us with the Saki scene that they can take somebody who we've started to dislike and actually turn them into a likable character in one scene and I'm sure none of us are feeling a lot of joy for Nodoka right now, so we know they're very capable of doing so.
I still don't think it's the best episode we've seen, don't get me wrong but I do have a little bit more appreciation for it. I'm still very appreciative that the the show doesn't treat Mai as a Senjougahara and actually throws her in the middle of it all.
Also I'm taking back what I've said about what's behind the doors, it won't be Nodoka related things. Mai has a reputation to uphold so it'll be something to tease him since she feels she can't do it directly... I've mentioned this quite a few times already and it happens again in this episode where Mai starts off taking it into the lewd direction but she understood that she couldn't really reply back to what Sakuta said due to it being inappropriate. It actually bothered her quite a bit.
And I've had my thoughts about Mai being the one that actually caused this and it would have been an amazing plot twist but her sister was the one that seemed to have taken the first initiative to go see Mai and Mai actually seems to be less bothered by it while Nodoka literally feels like a heavily broken character. I was actually also pretty keen to see how they did the outro to this episode and Sakuta wasn't in it this time. I've been trying to weight out all the things Mai could want that Nodoka has but I don't think there are that many... unless it's the dad she doesn't have anymore or a mother that 'cared' to even check up on her.
Also I got the key scene wrong, for some reason I thought he was allowed to keep it but she's literally just standing there not knowing what to do, she's a caring older sister but really doesn't know how to fix it. This was actually the scene that made me think that it could have been another Mai's issue but the next scene with Nodoka kind of put the whole focus back on Nodoka. Still admiring her big sister, even though they're angry with each other at the time...
I feel the diaries are pretty good representations of how both the characters are. Chaotic and all over the place vs neat and tidy with a little playful element to it. I feel Nodoka does see herself still as a kid where her mother takes care of everything, I feel the house is a good representation of that. Nodoka is still heavily relying on others.
When Sakuta tells Nodoka to have a bath, she says don't peek. I was actually waiting for him to say "never, ever?" but due to her reaction I've gotten a bit icky with him actually going to have a look.
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interregnum
Well-Known Member
Except it's not a matter of liking or disliking Unknown Blonde. It's that we don't even know who she is. She's not a character.
Forget about an earlier introduction--who is she in this episode? She's jealous of Mai. That's...not a character. That's a concept.
ACrankyOldMan
Well-Known Member
A cupboard filled with bunny suits!? lol
interregnum
Well-Known Member
Wait, actually, I forgot something (sorry):
Yes, Saki get s a new lease on life with basically a single line. Which is a credit not to be overlooked, for sure.
But Part 1 of this arc didn't fail because of it's personality (read as: tone or theme--something like that), it failed because it was BAD: poorly conceived, poorly executed.
Saki succeeds, here, because she is shown to have depth we didn't consider.
Part 1 fails because it is shallowness posing as depth.
It really might be. I'd love that. And I'm completely serious about that.
ACrankyOldMan
Well-Known Member
For sure. Totally agree and maybe she still has a bigger role to play in the upcoming story arcs because I've actually been wanting to see more of her. Also I do agree with you that Tomoe has been pushed aside. I was mentioning that she'd be an excellent way for some tension release but they really went cold turkey on her.
It'd fit with my idea of Mai for sure... but I'm trying to see what it would do for the episode. Mai doesn't want to touch his scar because it's not her body right? Why would she throw 'm into the deep herself then to put 'm in a scenario where he'd crack jokes in front of Nodoka because you know he'll ask her to wear it. What does Mai consider to be more important? Being connected with him on physical or spiritual level?
Overthinking it? Sure... but I think it's a neat little angle with the current setup.
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interregnum
Well-Known Member
Again, I don't think Mai is some kind of libertine-in-waiting, but she's also not a total prude. She's exceptionally flirty, in her way. Just...cautious. So when Sakuta catches her off-guard with his direct flourishes of flirting, she gets all blushy. But she's very much the flirt, when she's safe and in control.
As you've said (or maybe just implied) elsewhere, Mai is inexperienced. And she's nervous about jumping into the physical stuff. All makes sense.
Now...we've all speculated that Mai is basically begging Sakuta to open that cabinet thing. In which case, sexy lingere could be her way of prodding him to hurry up and solve this thing so they can get to the grown-up kissing.
...but that would seem quite out of character for her, no? Even without her knowing that Sakuta was lapping up the chance to stare at Mai's bare legs--and why wouldn't he--when not-Mai had taken him to the beach so she could...splash around...
HOWEVER...I can see her doing exactly what she says she's doing, which is warning him off that cabinet--which, if it does have sexy lingere in it (which...she's worn the bunny girl outfit already, so...what's the big deal?), she'd definitely not want him to see.
But let's scrap the whole lingere idea, even, and just look at what she said and our assumptions about why she'd say that.
We assume it's a kind of reverse psychology thing, because it's so obviously out of nowhere that it can't do anything but make Sakuta need to open the damn thing up. And Mai is far too smart, aware, and logical to do something so silly.
Unless...she's really, really nervous about what's in it. And she isn't thinking straight. And so she really, really, really wants him to stay away--and she makes the mistake of saying as much.
Also, given this episode's unusual deviation from the quality of the episodes before it, it's entirely possible that Mai meant what she said, but that she says it--sincerely though she was--just to the story has an excuse for Sakuta to open the cabinet thing.
I'm not saying this is what it is, just offering another option: that Mai wasn't using doublespeak on her guy.
Especially when her 15-seconds on screen in this last one made her seem like such a breath of fresh air.
Saki + Tomoe spin-off OVA!
They get stranded somewhere because they missed a bus--totally coincidentally on the same bus--and have to work together to get back!
WHY ISN'T ANYONE WRITING THIS DOWN?!?!?!
ACrankyOldMan
Well-Known Member
Hahaha, a 10 page novel about what's in the cupboard.
Yeah, I believe she's very inexperienced with boyfriends which is also why she's this odd duck that looks at relationships differently compared to how we look at them. Dealing with it differently then how we expect her to deal with it. Also she found an odd duck like her who seems to be treated the same way as her, so there is a certain understanding for her. I do believe she's very scared of her first kiss because I think she sees that as an actual commitment, there is a reason it's been brought up so many times.
Mai isn't sure about her appearance right now, she considers her sister a child so it feels a bit odd if it was lingerie or anything of the sort. The bunny suit is a seriously good option but I just feel the timing of it feels off.
She already snuck in last time during the night, it would get seriously awkward is she does it while looking like her sister. It'd laugh really hard too if Kaede catches that moment too.
But yah, the whole thing is just frames oddly right now and it really is guessing work. The only thing we can really go on is that Mai thinks her sister is a child and it's inappropriate for her in her current state to talk about things but the Futaba situation did bring up the brains vs cuves situation.
So besides Nodoka 's photos and lingerie, what else could there be that she's scared of sharing? And we're still not sure about if she really means it or if she's toying with him but I honestly feel she's toying with him.
It could also be a Nadeko Sengoku reference and we find some erotic mangas or it could be a Yukino reference and we'll find a massive bunny collection?
That's a very odd couple right now, I'm not sure about that one :p
Yeah, I believe she's very inexperienced with boyfriends which is also why she's this odd duck that looks at relationships differently compared to how we look at them. Dealing with it differently then how we expect her to deal with it. Also she found an odd duck like her who seems to be treated the same way as her, so there is a certain understanding for her. I do believe she's very scared of her first kiss because I think she sees that as an actual commitment, there is a reason it's been brought up so many times.
Mai isn't sure about her appearance right now, she considers her sister a child so it feels a bit odd if it was lingerie or anything of the sort. The bunny suit is a seriously good option but I just feel the timing of it feels off.
She already snuck in last time during the night, it would get seriously awkward is she does it while looking like her sister. It'd laugh really hard too if Kaede catches that moment too.
But yah, the whole thing is just frames oddly right now and it really is guessing work. The only thing we can really go on is that Mai thinks her sister is a child and it's inappropriate for her in her current state to talk about things but the Futaba situation did bring up the brains vs cuves situation.
So besides Nodoka 's photos and lingerie, what else could there be that she's scared of sharing? And we're still not sure about if she really means it or if she's toying with him but I honestly feel she's toying with him.
It could also be a Nadeko Sengoku reference and we find some erotic mangas or it could be a Yukino reference and we'll find a massive bunny collection?
That's a very odd couple right now, I'm not sure about that one :p
ZetsubouKaiji
Well-Known Member
Maybe I can't make you leave, but I can erase your presence. *Finger hover over delete post button.*
I hope he finds a lion and a witch in there and this arc takes a sharp turn.
MistLiigh
Well-Known Member
*bows before the almighty ZK* Please spare me from the ironically Mai-like fate, oh great one!
interregnum
Well-Known Member
Mai has commitment issues? I...don't see that, in what she's done, so far. She seems pretty keen on keeping Sakuta focused on her.
I think it's a self-control(/confidence) thing, not a commitment thing.
And...Senjogahara has a thing about physical intimacy, doesn't she?
COINCIDENCE???
That Unknown Blonde is seen by Mae as a child (which...does she say that? I'm too lazy to go back) shouldn't matter. Wouldn't Mai not want anything untoward happening with either sister with their bodies swapped, regardless?
Yes. For Futaba.
Does this arc not suck enough, at this point, that it needs to be repetitive, too? Man, I have such a list of what I don't want next week to bring.
Scared of? I dunno. Worried about him seeing? Could be anything.
Birthday present. Embarrassing childhood photos. Stuffed animals from her dad. A series of vibrators (...not to be crass). The complete run of an old sentai series. (Heck, if she's teasing, it's probably a note that says "I told you not to look.")
I'll place it at 4:1 it's something irrelevant. And 2:1 it's the magical fix-all for the plot.
Heh, either of these would at least make me laugh. So...let's go with erotic bunny comics for maximum effect.
You philistines just can't recognize genius!!!
ACrankyOldMan
Well-Known Member
It's not really that it's commitment issues but more like it's easier for her to be in this position to focus more on work but I guess it technically ties in with what you said... it's a self control thing. Keeping a ruler in between them makes it easier for her to deal with her having a boyfriend while working.
And I don't believe there was a physical intimacy issue with Senjougahara, more like she lived in a tiny little place with her dad and that she liked teasing Araragi. I felt the show always handled nudity and sexual themes as a way to indicate acceptance, not because it was there for fanservice or because people wanted to get it on... Cause Senjougahara bares all in literally the beginning of the series, before they are even in a relationship.
Exactly, which is why I don't think it's lingerie :p And I'd find it funny if it was a bunny suit but at the same time it shouldn't be a thing for those exact same reasons. So if it is one of the two then she'd be obviously testing him.
But yah, she said it when Sakuta talks to her when she's watching TV and he says something along the lines of "you're the one arguing with a child".
To be fair, a lot of the issues cross over between all the story arcs and get slightly 'upgraded' but I'm with you a full 100% on this though. If we really dumb it down, the whole show so far is about not ending up alone and being accepted for who you are.
Everything has been there for a reason so far, the show doesn't really do a lot of things to fluff the show up. So it'd say it has to be something for a purpose later in the show.
Has Mai ever really had a thing she was truly embarrass about? Other then being 1-upped by Sakuta?
You philistines just can't recognize genius!!!
Hahaha, I actually think they'd get along just fine without any real issues. I think Tomoe is a likable enough character who has done her homework to make 'friends' easily and Saki comes across as a bitch to people who lower her reputation. I don't think Tomoe is one of those, unless she hangs out with sakuta a lot more... but good luck getting that going right now.
WonderBoom
Well-Known Member
I'm going to bet on a diary-- wait hold on, I get it, I think I know, yeah! It has to be! It all makes sense now! I just had to think for a minute. Of course!
ACrankyOldMan
Well-Known Member
Yo... I've had girlfriends with diaries. That's a 100% no go zone. I was allowed to glance at a page one time and I had to sign a 100 different contracts to make sure I would never mention a thing... EVER! She would have said something along the lines of... "IF YOU EVER TOUCH MY DIARY, I'LL FUCK YOU UP... YOU HEAR ME?"
WonderBoom
Well-Known Member
The diary is a red herring by me, I actually know what it's going to be. I've downloaded this anime, it can't catch me off guard now! Watch it be an actual bunny or something.
ACrankyOldMan
Well-Known Member
Ah! So that is where you keep bunnies, I guess I have been doing it wrong this entire time.
interregnum
Well-Known Member
Cupboard reveal.
But it's easy not to show deep embarrassment when the thing that deeply embarrasses you is hidden away in a cupboard no one else can access.
More importantly, we're in the middle of a BAD bit of storytelling--so anything goes, at this point.
Dunno.
But it's easy not to show deep embarrassment when the thing that deeply embarrasses you is hidden away in a cupboard no one else can access.
More importantly, we're in the middle of a BAD bit of storytelling--so anything goes, at this point.
I didn't mean the sexual, but literally the physical: she was reticent because she'd almost been raped, with her lips being the only "untouched" part of her, she tells Araragi--and then asks him to wait for her to be ready, when she takes him to look at the stars.
<pedantic link to scene>
So, if we're going push the parallel to Monogatari thing a bit more...
ACrankyOldMan
Well-Known Member
Hahah, I love how much you're hating on this episode. It's been making me chuckle quite a bit :p
And you're showing a bit of displeasure with Iroduku too, I'm starting to think we need to skip episode 9's in future series... haha
True enough, for some reason I felt it was more of a warning to him because 'timeline wise' the whole scene with Kaiki only happens a few days later right? Where she basically drags his ass over the the fence and pretty much says that tonight is his lucky night.
But a very fair point. I knew it had a massive impact on her but for some reason I thought she kinda gave it a place rather quickly in the series. Probably because I binge watched the show too it didn't feel as impactful as it should have been. Also the last time you really think about that situation is the fence scene.
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interregnum
Well-Known Member
Ha! The Iroduku issues weren't aaaaanywhere near this level of garbage, but you're right--and now I'm nervous about the two other Ep 9s I have waiting for me to get to, this weekend.
Seriously, guys: Monogatari talk.
To that point, I want to talk about exactly that moment, which I had to go back to the episode in Nisemonogatari and re-watch, then back to the book and re-read the moment, and then do some internet research, after you mentioned it.
I genuinely do not remember what I thought that fence moment was or was supposed to be or how I reacted to it. The internet tells me it's generally agreed that they bang. The re-watch certainly leaves that to be the heavy implication. And the book...doesn't.
So, first, to your point: yeah, the Kaiki thing happens pretty closely after the stargazing speech about being afraid to get physical (though they do kiss), so it's almost like the impact of her...confession/heads-up is lessoned by it, strictly chronologically. The...production time between the two events (both book and show), though, would probably make that feel longer, so that sort of balances out the narrative significance of her feelings, at that moment, with the chronological (and totally believable) turnaround being so relatively quick. So, yeah, the binge-watch that we both did for the show is probably more than a little responsible for details to have been overlooked. (Funny that we fell on opposite sides of that coin, though, huh?)
Now, in the book, the "fence scene" has no mention of a fence and is pretty much just dialogue--dialogue that is more-or-less the same as what's in the show (and it's from the good translator, not the one who decicded to swap my beloved Tsukihi's famous "platinum mad" for the incomprehensible "dagnabbit mad"). With just the dialogue, though, there is no physical sign that Senjogahara's all "Ravish me!" as she is in the anime. And her ending line, in the book, is "be kind to me"--which is not that different from the anime's "be good to me," even in a nuance sense--which is given after a long discussion (both explicitly and implicitly) about how vulnerable she is. So, because I read the book earlier this year and watched the show sometime in 2017, the book version is what I remember. And, in that moment, I very much read "be kind to me" as an un-Senjogahara--and therefore very serious--plea for affection, coddling, and comfort. Specifically of a "hold me and make me feel safe" variety, rather than anything particularly sexy.
On the one hand, she's saying that this whole episode made her get over her past--which, in the immediate sense, would be her attachment to all things Kaiki-connected (her feeling for him, the remnant of her crab-caused anxiety) and, in the broader sense, the fear from the almost-rape. So, yeah, gettin' busy--or, at least, opening the door thereto--would seem a logical result of these things going away, since they seemed to be the things that were holding her back.
On the other hand...that is a weird f***ing moment for that to happen: "I'm an emotional wreck, right now--so let's lose our virginities right now."
I mean, it's believable, it's realistic--I'm not naive to that. It's just...not how I would have wanted it to happen for these two. (And, as a rule, I hate sex as shorthand for intimacy--especially in fiction.) Which is probably why I didn't jump to...y'know.
What can I say? I'm a Romantic.
...which is a long way of saying I wonder how much of that is being pulled into this part of Bunny Girl. (It's not likely to end in sex, if this is the parallel we're going for, with Mai x Sakuta, but you can bet your bottom dollar there will be smooches!)
And I'd actually completely forgotten the fence bit, so it looks like, between the two of us, we make a single, moderately comprehensive memory.
To that point, I want to talk about exactly that moment, which I had to go back to the episode in Nisemonogatari and re-watch, then back to the book and re-read the moment, and then do some internet research, after you mentioned it.
I genuinely do not remember what I thought that fence moment was or was supposed to be or how I reacted to it. The internet tells me it's generally agreed that they bang. The re-watch certainly leaves that to be the heavy implication. And the book...doesn't.
So, first, to your point: yeah, the Kaiki thing happens pretty closely after the stargazing speech about being afraid to get physical (though they do kiss), so it's almost like the impact of her...confession/heads-up is lessoned by it, strictly chronologically. The...production time between the two events (both book and show), though, would probably make that feel longer, so that sort of balances out the narrative significance of her feelings, at that moment, with the chronological (and totally believable) turnaround being so relatively quick. So, yeah, the binge-watch that we both did for the show is probably more than a little responsible for details to have been overlooked. (Funny that we fell on opposite sides of that coin, though, huh?)
Now, in the book, the "fence scene" has no mention of a fence and is pretty much just dialogue--dialogue that is more-or-less the same as what's in the show (and it's from the good translator, not the one who decicded to swap my beloved Tsukihi's famous "platinum mad" for the incomprehensible "dagnabbit mad"). With just the dialogue, though, there is no physical sign that Senjogahara's all "Ravish me!" as she is in the anime. And her ending line, in the book, is "be kind to me"--which is not that different from the anime's "be good to me," even in a nuance sense--which is given after a long discussion (both explicitly and implicitly) about how vulnerable she is. So, because I read the book earlier this year and watched the show sometime in 2017, the book version is what I remember. And, in that moment, I very much read "be kind to me" as an un-Senjogahara--and therefore very serious--plea for affection, coddling, and comfort. Specifically of a "hold me and make me feel safe" variety, rather than anything particularly sexy.
On the one hand, she's saying that this whole episode made her get over her past--which, in the immediate sense, would be her attachment to all things Kaiki-connected (her feeling for him, the remnant of her crab-caused anxiety) and, in the broader sense, the fear from the almost-rape. So, yeah, gettin' busy--or, at least, opening the door thereto--would seem a logical result of these things going away, since they seemed to be the things that were holding her back.
On the other hand...that is a weird f***ing moment for that to happen: "I'm an emotional wreck, right now--so let's lose our virginities right now."
I mean, it's believable, it's realistic--I'm not naive to that. It's just...not how I would have wanted it to happen for these two. (And, as a rule, I hate sex as shorthand for intimacy--especially in fiction.) Which is probably why I didn't jump to...y'know.
What can I say? I'm a Romantic.
...which is a long way of saying I wonder how much of that is being pulled into this part of Bunny Girl. (It's not likely to end in sex, if this is the parallel we're going for, with Mai x Sakuta, but you can bet your bottom dollar there will be smooches!)
And, clearly, you are not alone, my friend.
I love this scene.