LunaEclipse308
New Member
Hellooooo! as I said I'm suck at speak English but glad to meet you here:)
Japanese discussion?
- Thread starter sothis
- Start date
Hellooooo! as I said I'm suck at speak English but glad to meet you here:)
actangy
New Member
I love to learn the Japanese language, I've tried self study but I'm easily feel lazy. I try taking the JLPT N4 last Dec 01 haha without studying that much but I read faster now except that I barely understand the exam.. still a good experience to try it. I'm hoping to learn the language in school next time.
GlennMagusHarvey
Well-Known Member
Is there a Japanese discussion subforum, or is it just relegated to this thread or make-your-own-thread at this point?
I have a question about Japanese syllable stresses and I was wondering where I should make a new thread to ask it.
I have a question about Japanese syllable stresses and I was wondering where I should make a new thread to ask it.
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Vuh
Gold Supporter
Oh trust me I've met hundreds of native English speakers in America with worse command of the language than yours. You're good. (As a side note, I'd say you're doing relatively okay. The word "suck" is pretty omnipresent in English language media but it's still an idiom nonetheless, and properly using idiomatic expressions is always a sign of passing to fair command of a language)
Edit: as a side note, I really should study Japanese. I mean, why not, right? It's not particularly helpful in my industry but it's been on my bucket list since I was about 11 years old
ZetsubouKaiji
Well-Known Member
Just ask it here.
GlennMagusHarvey
Well-Known Member
To what extent does have Japanese have syllable stress rules, and if so, what are they?
I was reading about how it seems "Cellien" (a portmanteau of "cell" and "alien", it seems) was mistranslated as "Cerulean" for the Kemono Friends anime, due to how both words have the same syllables in Japanese (se ru ri a n), and noting how simply moving the stress differentiates the two.
This made me think of my earlier instances of pronouncing "Naruto", "Sakura", "Sasuke" etc. with a stress on the second syllable -- as if they're Spanish words -- only to find that the Japanese actually stress the first syllable in these examples, and compress the second syllable so far as to almost make it disappear (e.g. "Sakura" as "Sacra" or "Sasuke" as "Saske").
Does Japanese have a thing for stressing the first syllable in a name or noun or such? (Obviously I can't say "word" because Romaji is not actually the native writing system, but there's clearly some logic to how strings of Romaji letters unbroken by spaces are decided upon.)
On a related note, is there a way to set Japanese lyrics to music such that the "verbal choreography" sounds bad? i.e. doing stuff like putting unstressed syllables on high/long/loud notes.
I was reading about how it seems "Cellien" (a portmanteau of "cell" and "alien", it seems) was mistranslated as "Cerulean" for the Kemono Friends anime, due to how both words have the same syllables in Japanese (se ru ri a n), and noting how simply moving the stress differentiates the two.
This made me think of my earlier instances of pronouncing "Naruto", "Sakura", "Sasuke" etc. with a stress on the second syllable -- as if they're Spanish words -- only to find that the Japanese actually stress the first syllable in these examples, and compress the second syllable so far as to almost make it disappear (e.g. "Sakura" as "Sacra" or "Sasuke" as "Saske").
Does Japanese have a thing for stressing the first syllable in a name or noun or such? (Obviously I can't say "word" because Romaji is not actually the native writing system, but there's clearly some logic to how strings of Romaji letters unbroken by spaces are decided upon.)
On a related note, is there a way to set Japanese lyrics to music such that the "verbal choreography" sounds bad? i.e. doing stuff like putting unstressed syllables on high/long/loud notes.
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knoxyal
Database Moderator
The sound/rhythm system in Japanese is mora based, not syllable. Each kana sound is worth one mora. Usually, two moras are treated as a single unit.
Naruto →ナルト→ナル/ト→naru/to
which is why it sounds like the second syllable is unstressed.
GlennMagusHarvey
Well-Known Member
Oh I see.
And the first mora is stressed, thereby making the second mora unstressed, it seems. Are there cases where the first mora is unstressed while the second mora is stressed?
G
Guest
So... what with this global lockdown, I have a LOT of free time on my hands, and no gaming systems because I'm poooooooor so I will probably be plugging away from fun Kanji mnemonics here and there for fun.
Welcome to Amateur and Unlicensed Professor Owl's Teaching As I go, Which is Irresponsible but FUCK IT, Master Class (Sponsored by no one, ever)
Today's kanji character is for the word "Fault" and this is for the "On'yomi" reading, which is often used when part of compound words (ie, when not by itself).
失
For example of how this can be read, the word for "Loss" can be written as "遺失" which is read "いしつ" (or, "ishitsu") or as "喪失" which is read "そうしつ" (or, "soushitsu"). To clarify, "喪" or "sou" is the On reading for "mourning" and as mentioned, "失" means fault. We are at a "Loss" for something, and we are "Mourning" the situation because we know it was our "fault." We have compound words in English, so this shouldn't be too difficult to understand, there are just a lot of them, and they are tricky, especially with rendaku (alternate readings/spellings) but that's neither here nor there.
Now that I have laid down a hopefully helpful framework for understanding how kanji can work, let us move on to the point of this, which is learning a mnemonic for pronunciation by utilizing a ridiculous story.
The reading for "失" is obviously then read as "しつ" which is "Shi" and "tsu" respectively ("shitsu") so let us craft a story.
Think of your worst enemy or most hated person. Think about some of their many FAULTs. Out of all their FAULTs though, the worst one is that whenever they see someone out and about walking their pet SHI TSU (Shih Tzu) dog, they just have to run up and kick it. Their biggest FAULT is that they're a freaking psychopath that loves kicking dogs. What a terrible FAULT that is. Poor SHITSU.
Let the extreme emotion plant itself inside your consciousness, you will always remember the reading for FAULT because of the poor imaginary dog someone kicked (but don't let that dog get hurt by the kick, even imaginary dogs deserve better than that. This person's second FAULT is that they have stupid weak kicks because they suck. The SHITSU is ok and we're all smarter now for having lived through it. Except that dogkicker. Screw him or her.)
Welcome to Amateur and Unlicensed Professor Owl's Teaching As I go, Which is Irresponsible but FUCK IT, Master Class (Sponsored by no one, ever)
Today's kanji character is for the word "Fault" and this is for the "On'yomi" reading, which is often used when part of compound words (ie, when not by itself).
失
For example of how this can be read, the word for "Loss" can be written as "遺失" which is read "いしつ" (or, "ishitsu") or as "喪失" which is read "そうしつ" (or, "soushitsu"). To clarify, "喪" or "sou" is the On reading for "mourning" and as mentioned, "失" means fault. We are at a "Loss" for something, and we are "Mourning" the situation because we know it was our "fault." We have compound words in English, so this shouldn't be too difficult to understand, there are just a lot of them, and they are tricky, especially with rendaku (alternate readings/spellings) but that's neither here nor there.
Now that I have laid down a hopefully helpful framework for understanding how kanji can work, let us move on to the point of this, which is learning a mnemonic for pronunciation by utilizing a ridiculous story.
The reading for "失" is obviously then read as "しつ" which is "Shi" and "tsu" respectively ("shitsu") so let us craft a story.
Think of your worst enemy or most hated person. Think about some of their many FAULTs. Out of all their FAULTs though, the worst one is that whenever they see someone out and about walking their pet SHI TSU (Shih Tzu) dog, they just have to run up and kick it. Their biggest FAULT is that they're a freaking psychopath that loves kicking dogs. What a terrible FAULT that is. Poor SHITSU.
Let the extreme emotion plant itself inside your consciousness, you will always remember the reading for FAULT because of the poor imaginary dog someone kicked (but don't let that dog get hurt by the kick, even imaginary dogs deserve better than that. This person's second FAULT is that they have stupid weak kicks because they suck. The SHITSU is ok and we're all smarter now for having lived through it. Except that dogkicker. Screw him or her.)
Rascal
Gold Supporter
You're gonna make me wanna learn japanese if you keep this kinda posting up
G
Guest
All according to keikaku (follow along to learn what keikaku means).
Rascal
Gold Supporter
Following along was all part of the plan.
mussolini
Active Member
I think this has more to do with your ear than the language itself.
Japanese uses a pitch accent rather than a stress accent for word intonation. With your example of Naruto names it's not that you're stressing the wrong syllable but that you're stressing any syllable at all. My guess would be that, accustomed to interpreting those names (and other words) through a foreign stress accent, hearing them without that stress sounds to you like the stress has shifted, when in fact it's just been removed and replaced by the proper pitch accent - if you were used to [na/RU/to] and suddenly hear [na/ru/to] then perhaps you misinterpret the lack of stress on /ru/ as a presence of stress on /na/ (where in fact there is none). If you get your head around stress and pitch accents then you can try pronouncing Naruto properly versus pronouncing it with stress on the first syllable, and the difference is pretty obvious.
That could be part of the explanation of why words sound like they stress the first syllable. Why the first, though? Why would you interpret pitch as stress on the pattern [NA/ru/to] rather than [na/ru/TO]? I speculate as follows: Maybe it's to do with the general downward pitch pattern - as a simplified general rule pitch is non-increasing in Japanese words, so unless the pitch shift is late in the word you're going to hear that shift towards the front more often than towards the end of a word.
There's a limit to how much one can rationalise this because I suspect the phenomenon you experience will disappear as you get more familiar with the language. As I said, it's more to do with your ear than the language. Maybe someone with a better handle on linguistics (rather than Japanese) can do a better job explaining accents and how they are experienced.
Not strictly; pitch patterns are determined by word (and vary by dialect). But as I mentioned above pitch tends to be non-increasing within a word which might explain why it sounds that way to you.
I have an impression (though I cannot justify it with any examples off the top of my head) that it's perfectly fine to ignore the usual pitch accent if it doesn't fit with the music in a song. I guess if you insisted on proper accent then it could sound bad.
Words with the same pronunciation are differentiated by pitch accent, but even in normal speech it's usually pretty easy to tell from context (and enough native speakers have regional accents that shift pitch around that people are used to hearing different accents even before considering foreign learners). I think confusion is even less of a problem with singing.
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G
Guest
Welcome back to another episode of "Dr.* Owl's Thrilling,* Licensed,* Educational,* Adventure Hour*" the ONLY* show that is legally required to asterisk 3/4ths of it's claims to defend against lawsuits!
Today's webisode will feature a wonderful little Kanji that is very dear to me, and a story about garbage television. Are YOU ready to be... the father?
Lesson #2: Forest.
森
This kanji is particularly easy to understand, as the symbol for tree is easy to recognize once you learn it, it is pictographic (I think that's the word) as in it's easy to understand what it stands for because it looks like it. Forest is a cluster of 3 "tree" kanji, resulting in one kanji that is read as "forest" or "woods".
Thankfully, the kanji character is not read by saying tree three times, like "mokumokumoku" which is the Kun reading, or "Kikiki" like the On reading.
No, thankfully (and, logically) this is read as a standalone word, just like "tree" and "forest" are different words in English. We read this as "Mori" which is read as "もり", "Mo" (も" and "Ri" (り). Mori.
Now, how will we remember this simple pronunciation? Let's take it to your favorite segment "The Mnemonic Power Hour with Mother of Muses, Mnemosyne." TAKE IT AWAY, MNEMOSYNE!
For today's mnemonic, let us think about being in the middle of an enormous, ancient forest.
You are stuck out in the FOREST and are super sad, because you have no television, and you just don't know what to do without television. You want to get home, because all you want to do is watch the MORI show, because trash television is the best! Is he the father? Is he not the father? Spoiler alert, it doesn't matter, they're swinging at eachother by the end regardless. Good old MORI Povich.
Today's webisode will feature a wonderful little Kanji that is very dear to me, and a story about garbage television. Are YOU ready to be... the father?
Lesson #2: Forest.
森
This kanji is particularly easy to understand, as the symbol for tree is easy to recognize once you learn it, it is pictographic (I think that's the word) as in it's easy to understand what it stands for because it looks like it. Forest is a cluster of 3 "tree" kanji, resulting in one kanji that is read as "forest" or "woods".
Thankfully, the kanji character is not read by saying tree three times, like "mokumokumoku" which is the Kun reading, or "Kikiki" like the On reading.
No, thankfully (and, logically) this is read as a standalone word, just like "tree" and "forest" are different words in English. We read this as "Mori" which is read as "もり", "Mo" (も" and "Ri" (り). Mori.
Now, how will we remember this simple pronunciation? Let's take it to your favorite segment "The Mnemonic Power Hour with Mother of Muses, Mnemosyne." TAKE IT AWAY, MNEMOSYNE!
For today's mnemonic, let us think about being in the middle of an enormous, ancient forest.
You are stuck out in the FOREST and are super sad, because you have no television, and you just don't know what to do without television. You want to get home, because all you want to do is watch the MORI show, because trash television is the best! Is he the father? Is he not the father? Spoiler alert, it doesn't matter, they're swinging at eachother by the end regardless. Good old MORI Povich.
G
Guest
Oh, what's the translation?! I'm not sure of that character before "re", and "shi". Is that "person" read "jin" or "nin"?
mussolini
Active Member
Onna sannin yoreba kashimashii
When three women gather it will be noisy.
G
Guest
Welcome back to Owl Sama's Constantly Name-Changing Japanese Run Around and Linguistic Jamboree, with your unqualified host, Owl (of "Sama" fame).
Today's webisode, we're learning a valuable word for a priceless item: Medicine!
医
This kanji is made by combining two characters, "cage" (匚) and "arrow" (矢). Obviously, as with all kanji presented through these lessons, this is not really a productive way of learning kanji, as learning "cage" and "arrow" on their own first would make this easier, but I have guaranteed nothing in the way of efficiency. The Owl Method is NOT accredited.
How do we pronounce this bad boy though?
Thankfully, medicine is as easy as they come. Or should I say... "I"sy (hold your applause). This kanji is pronounced with the hiragana "i" (い) which is further pronounced as "EE" as in "sEE". Don't you sEE? It's EEsEE!
So, "医" = "i" (ee)
Anyway, where were we...
Ah yes, trapped in a CAGE because we went and got ourselves shot by some little ol dang ol ARROW, and we like... man, we dead, for sure. You think to yourself "man alive, if only there was some sort of... I don't know... giant bird to deliver me some MEDICINE, and I..." and then you are caught off guard by a large shadow flying overhead. "Oh. My. Gandolph" you say to yourself. "There's a giant I-gle (EEagle) above me with some medicine! I'm saved by this convenient plot device! Aww yiss! For Middle Earth!"
Today's webisode, we're learning a valuable word for a priceless item: Medicine!
医
This kanji is made by combining two characters, "cage" (匚) and "arrow" (矢). Obviously, as with all kanji presented through these lessons, this is not really a productive way of learning kanji, as learning "cage" and "arrow" on their own first would make this easier, but I have guaranteed nothing in the way of efficiency. The Owl Method is NOT accredited.
How do we pronounce this bad boy though?
Thankfully, medicine is as easy as they come. Or should I say... "I"sy (hold your applause). This kanji is pronounced with the hiragana "i" (い) which is further pronounced as "EE" as in "sEE". Don't you sEE? It's EEsEE!
So, "医" = "i" (ee)
Anyway, where were we...
Ah yes, trapped in a CAGE because we went and got ourselves shot by some little ol dang ol ARROW, and we like... man, we dead, for sure. You think to yourself "man alive, if only there was some sort of... I don't know... giant bird to deliver me some MEDICINE, and I..." and then you are caught off guard by a large shadow flying overhead. "Oh. My. Gandolph" you say to yourself. "There's a giant I-gle (EEagle) above me with some medicine! I'm saved by this convenient plot device! Aww yiss! For Middle Earth!"
G
Guest
Welcome back the the fourth installment of "Owl Sama's Learn a Little, Love a Little, Panica Lottle Japanese Learn Along and Definitely Not a Pyramid Scheme Lecture Hour."
Today, we will be learning the vocab for learning how to say "to help".
助ける
"To help" is made by taking the kanji for "help" (助) and adding "ke" (け) and "ru" (る). In general, when vocab words ends in an "u" sound like "ru" (る) here (so "su," "mu," "ru," etc) that means it is the verb form of the kanji character used (in this case, the verb form of "help" is "to help".) The "Ke" (け) sound helps us differentiate the vocab "to help" form the vocab "to BE helped" which uses the character "ka" (か) and is thus read "助かる". The character for help is read simply as TASU, or "ta" (た) and "su" (す) when used in vocab like this. So all together, we get "tasukeru" (as with many Japanese words, the "u" sound in "su" is dropped, making this read, in English phonetics as tasukeru.
How can we differentiate between these two meanings? Why, we get down and sloppy with the original FILTH DEVICE itself, the glorious mnemonic.
At this point in our learning story, we are standing on top of a cliff, and we suddenly hear someone shouting for help. Looking over the ledge, we see a man is dangling with one hand. "please!" he shouts, "you have TO HELP me! TASU (toss) me some CARE (keru) (like... maybe a rope?) If you want TO HELP this doomed mountainclimber, you better go ahead and TASU him some KERU. Then again... it's only the two of you up here. You can just walk away. Who is going to stop you? (your conscious, hopefully.)
Today, we will be learning the vocab for learning how to say "to help".
助ける
"To help" is made by taking the kanji for "help" (助) and adding "ke" (け) and "ru" (る). In general, when vocab words ends in an "u" sound like "ru" (る) here (so "su," "mu," "ru," etc) that means it is the verb form of the kanji character used (in this case, the verb form of "help" is "to help".) The "Ke" (け) sound helps us differentiate the vocab "to help" form the vocab "to BE helped" which uses the character "ka" (か) and is thus read "助かる". The character for help is read simply as TASU, or "ta" (た) and "su" (す) when used in vocab like this. So all together, we get "tasukeru" (as with many Japanese words, the "u" sound in "su" is dropped, making this read, in English phonetics as tasukeru.
How can we differentiate between these two meanings? Why, we get down and sloppy with the original FILTH DEVICE itself, the glorious mnemonic.
At this point in our learning story, we are standing on top of a cliff, and we suddenly hear someone shouting for help. Looking over the ledge, we see a man is dangling with one hand. "please!" he shouts, "you have TO HELP me! TASU (toss) me some CARE (keru) (like... maybe a rope?) If you want TO HELP this doomed mountainclimber, you better go ahead and TASU him some KERU. Then again... it's only the two of you up here. You can just walk away. Who is going to stop you? (your conscious, hopefully.)
Jaimefm
Well-Known Member
I’m taking a Japanese class in school but due to current events it is becoming harder and harder to find time to practice with my classmates. (We used to practice 3x a week on campus). With the switch to online classes, I’m really nervous about taking this class now. Anyone want to help ya girl out and voice chat or something? Can we add a 日本語 voice chat to the discord or something?