How do you feel about characters who refuse to kill?

I found one thing I like about Ange from Cross Ange. She's okay with killing. That's one of the reasons I think she's a pretty relatable protagonist. She obviously killed some humans when she blew up those ships. Killing humans in the world of Cross Ange is okay, since most of them are bad. And even though a society like that is the result of endocrination and misunderstanding, Ange doesn't care. She reliezes that some peoples lives are simply worthless. I also will say this...

Light Yagame was completely just in his actions... In fact, I'd say he's the greatest hero depicted in anime... not saying he's the greatest character, but he's the character who's perform the greatest act of good for the world ever depicted in anything ever. He was a hero to the entire planet and used his gift to make the world a better place... not by using the only way he knew how... but by using the only way possible to bring peace upon society

There I said it... if anything, the people trying to stop have literally been trying to stop the only solution for the worlds problems. At the end of deathnote
He's killed... and I said "well, there's goes the only possible method of peace and tranquility in this world, So let's give these officers a round of applause for returning the world to a violent war torn hellhole. Especially you L.. how you hypocritically used a human as a test subject to understand Light better

This makes me realize something.... not killing is for retards. Now... in Trigun and Rurouni Kenshin there's a good reason... they have psychological scars and problems relating to thier past which effects thier morality on killing... it actually makes them interesting. However, in Kurau Phantom Memory we don't get this... just an idiot afraid of killing (I still loved that show)

To me.... I feel that if you're going to have a character like this, they NEED to have a tragic backstory which effects their desire to never kill. Edward Elric... you're awesome, but you're also an idiot. Without a reason why these characters never kill, you get idiots blinded by dumb idealism and not using logic.

So there's my opinion... it could be intersting but only if the characters has been through some serious shit like Kenshin has... otherwise, you just have a dumbass who's overly sensitive.
 
I understand that some characters can hesitate to kill, have some moral problems etc, but I totally hate when they go way of "I'm better than that" and refuse to kill anyone simply to be the good guy. I'm still waiting to see anime where they lose someone important because thye were stupid enough to let the bad guy live...

I really like characters who do what they have to do and don't bother with such minor details :P On the other hand I'm not really fan of overly bloodthirsty killers (Alucard being exception).
 
I understand that some characters can hesitate to kill, have some moral problems etc, but I totally hate when they go way of "I'm better than that" and refuse to kill anyone simply to be the good guy. I'm still waiting to see anime where they lose someone important because thye were stupid enough to let the bad guy live...

I really like characters who do what they have to do and don't bother with such minor details :P On the other hand I'm not really fan of overly bloodthirsty killers (Alucard being exception).

And it just makes the characters cooler when they have a pragmatic view of killing. Like Mugen from Samurai Champloo.

And the way Ange shot a man who she already injured to the point where he couldn't fight... damn... He was the enemy. She didn't give a fuck if he was already incapacitated. She's a badass
 
Killing is a very difficult act to do, even harder to live with after the fact. A lot of media just doesn't portray the reality of it. I don't even know if I could kill someone and I'm one of the most cynical people on this board. Until I'm actually put into that situation where it becomes necessary I cannot say for sure how I would react.

I prefer characters that actually value life, not just theirs, but others too. Sure, some people do rash and horrid things, but it's no cause for them to die. Who is the rightful judge who can condemn a man to death righteously? The different criteria man invents for the justification of someone's death holds no moral absolutism, they are judged by other men. Killing is neither intrinsically good nor bad, neither is anything else, so it is humans that give it meaning and humans, who are flawed, that become the judges.

As with Light Yagami, I found him to be an extremely selfish and petulant boy, imposing his own values on people without regard for others. He was willing to kill people who simply followed the law, whose idea of justice was the capture and fair trial of the culprit - how is their version of justice any less than Light's for their refusal to kill a man?

The "peace and tranquillity" you mention has another name: Orwellian. Forced peace to live under the fear of death is not a utopia, nor is it a desirable state of life, it's oppressive and it's an imposition of one's values on the many. Laws exist because they are collectively decided by a group of people, and it is within these laws that security, sanctity of life, relative comforts, and peace-of-mind exists. Most developed nations are not "war-torn hellholes" - be thankful that you weren't born in Lebanon and have constant access to the internet (it's easy to call the world "war-torn" from the safety of your desk chair, because then you can ignore the altruism and creativity of humans).

And after all that, after asking people for their opinion, you just stand up and call everyone retards if they don't follow your dogma. Characters don't kill simply because it's such an extreme and painful decision to make. People like Jason Bourne also don't kill because they understand the value of life. Yes, people might oppose them, but that's not a reason to put a bullet in their head.

And back to what I said in the beginning: killing is a very difficult thing to actually do. It's easy to say otherwise without ever having been in that situation, like saying you'd take on a mad gunman if he was shooting at others - the reality is very much different.

So why don't people kill, or refuse to kill? Because they're human.
 
I generally agree with Panta's post, but I look at this problem from different perspective: in anime characters often refuse to kill enemy (for whatever reason) and it somehow always works out in the end. How many times we saw evil guy who got caught, then ran away, made mess, then got caught again? After that someone should ask why was he even spared? How many innocent people died or were in danger just because single person, responsible for their safety, was "selfish" and didn't take burden of killing bad guy on himself?
I prefer stoic protagonists, so I guess it also plays role in my opinion, as act of sparing someones life shows emotions.

On a whole it's pretty big and difficult topic, so I'm trying to keep my opinion to anime characters only.
 
^ But you're making the assumption the villain will kill again. We as the audience know he will, but it's a dangerous precedent to set because you're advocating killing the villain based on things he may or may not do. How far do we take this concept? Do we then have to kill the villain's family and friends so they don't come seeking revenge? And what if the hero thinks someone is dangerous? Should they just kill that person?

Light was never meant to be viewed as a hero. He was always meant to be the villain of Death Note. You can't even really argue that he was an anti-hero at the start because in one of the earliest episodes
he murders a man for insulting him. He might have talked a justice, but the first time L tried to bait him, Light killed a man on national TV. Light thought he was killing L someone was not a criminal and in no way deserved death. That one moment paints Light a complete hypocrite. As the series progresses Light becomes increasingly vile as he gets more and more drunk with power and wrapped up in his own fantasies about being a god.

Even without that clear proof that Light is a hypocrite, all of the things Panta says apply. Light sense of justice is simple minded and childish. He wanted to use his power to become a tyrant that bent the world to his will. He thought he could make people his own play things while playing at being god. He didn't make the world a better place but created a society that ran on fear. He went from killing murderers to killing people that committed much less serious crimes with very shitty standards for burden of proof. He was making the world into a much worse place.

He's certainly a compelling villain to watch, but a villain nonetheless.

Kill is something that shouldn't be taken on lightly or with a cavalier attitude and to ask a hero to take on that burden or be responsible for the future crimes that person might commit is asking too much. Whether a character kills or not is an issue that should be examined on a case by case basis. It depends on the kind of story the author is trying to tell and what that particular character is supposed to represent.
 
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I felt like I should add that the point of the above is not to say that all villains deserve any kind of second chance because that again depends on what type of crime they've committed and all of that. The point I was trying to make was the decision shouldn't be forced onto one person.

The opening post specifically mentions Edward Elric and I have to point out Edward is only thirteen years old.
 
I generally agree with Panta's post, but I look at this problem from different perspective: in anime characters often refuse to kill enemy (for whatever reason) and it somehow always works out in the end. How many times we saw evil guy who got caught, then ran away, made mess, then got caught again? After that someone should ask why was he even spared? How many innocent people died or were in danger just because single person, responsible for their safety, was "selfish" and didn't take burden of killing bad guy on himself?
I prefer stoic protagonists, so I guess it also plays role in my opinion, as act of sparing someones life shows emotions.

On a whole it's pretty big and difficult topic, so I'm trying to keep my opinion to anime characters only.

As Kaiji said, you're projecting your own expectations on that person; as a member of the audience you know for the plot to continue that the villain must escape and commit more atrocities.

The society we live in, however, is very different. If everything were a movie, men like Anders Beiring would have escaped and committed another massacre, except he's rotting in jail and probably will be for the rest of his life. People actually face punishment, and with the right environment can even reform. I value a restorative system that has less recidivism than retributive systems, ones that can re-educate people and teach them the consequences of their actions for the people they victimize. You'd be surprised how many actually feel guilt for committing theft or hurting someone. But in Light Yagami's world, those people would never have a chance to reform - they'd be executed without trial, with no-one trying to understand their motives and everyone assuming the worst about them.

That's not to say I disagree with Kaiji, however, as there are people, in my estimation, that are beyond reformation.

We do not have the right, without being hypocrites, to judge a man on what he could do, we can only punish them on what they have done. We are not at the stage where thought-crime is a reality, and should never look to adopt such an approach.

Emotions do not make a person weak. Quite often I see stoic characters akin to sociopaths, incapable of empathizing with others and who aren't afraid to impose their own values on people without consideration. Regardless of emotions, it is rationale that best exemplifies a man, or, rather, despite emotion a man able to act rationally is far more interesting a character than someone seemingly devoid of emotion.
 
Emotions do not make a person weak. Quite often I see stoic characters akin to sociopaths, incapable of empathizing with others and who aren't afraid to impose their own values on people without consideration. Regardless of emotions, it is rationale that best exemplifies a man, or, rather, despite emotion a man able to act rationally is far more interesting a character than someone seemingly devoid of emotion.

Maybe you are right. The problem is, in many cases to show emotions of characters, authors make them look indecisive or weak willed. I guess it's realistic to hesitate when it comes to killing someone, but if we play realism, then what about all those good guys who never ever considered killing that evil mastermind who turned their lives upside down, often by hurting their families and friends? I find it boring.
Acting despite emotions is sure cool. But isn't stoicism the highest level of it? After all, being stoic doesn't mean literally being unable to feel emotions (ok, in some cases it does...), but mastering their control. For me it's something to look up to. Of course everything can be overdone, even rational thinking.

But then again, it all depends on anime itself. I'm watching Psycho-Pass now and there I'm totally against killing.



And mind you, I'm still talking only about my feelings towards anime characters who refuse to kill, from "fun from watching" perspective. My opinion about real life could, or could not, be totally different. (I just feel like mentioning it to don't make this topic too serious)
 
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Killing is a very difficult act to do, even harder to live with after the fact. A lot of media just doesn't portray the reality of it. I don't even know if I could kill someone and I'm one of the most cynical people on this board. Until I'm actually put into that situation where it becomes necessary I cannot say for sure how I would react..

I would never kill because of the consequences of murder... I will admit, if I could get away with it, there's lot of people I'd love to kill in reality.

I prefer characters that actually value life, not just theirs, but others too. Sure, some people do rash and horrid things, but it's no cause for them to die. Who is the rightful judge who can condemn a man to death righteously? The different criteria man invents for the justification of someone's death holds no moral absolutism, they are judged by other men. Killing is neither intrinsically good nor bad, neither is anything else, so it is humans that give it meaning and humans, who are flawed, that become the judges.

Yea... I agree, but it comes to the point where it's unreasonable... Like with Vash the Stampede. He takes his morality to a ridiculous degree. However, it's okay for him because considering his back story it makes sense.

As with Light Yagami, I found him to be an extremely selfish and petulant boy, imposing his own values on people without regard for others. He was willing to kill people who simply followed the law, whose idea of justice was the capture and fair trial of the culprit - how is their version of justice any less than Light's for their refusal to kill a man?

He was trying to keep from getting caught. Sacrafices had to be made. The truth is that 90% of who he killed greatly benefitted the world. The other killings were the result of him trying not to get caught... his problem is that he wanted to save the world too much to where he felt the ends justified the means

The "peace and tranquillity" you mention has another name: Orwellian. Forced peace to live under the fear of death is not a utopia, nor is it a desirable state of life, it's oppressive and it's an imposition of one's values on the many. Laws exist because they are collectively decided by a group of people, and it is within these laws that security, sanctity of life, relative comforts, and peace-of-mind exists. Most developed nations are not "war-torn hellholes" - be thankful that you weren't born in Lebanon and have constant access to the internet (it's easy to call the world "war-torn" from the safety of your desk chair, because then you can ignore the altruism and creativity of humans).

Even in developed nations, there's still people in this world who the world is better off without. Not all humans have life that's worth anything. I know people in real life who I'd not lose a minutes rest if I killed them and got away with it.

And after all that, after asking people for their opinion, you just stand up and call everyone retards if they don't follow your dogma. Characters don't kill simply because it's such an extreme and painful decision to make. People like Jason Bourne also don't kill because they understand the value of life. Yes, people might oppose them, but that's not a reason to put a bullet in their head.

There is not value of life for all humans, only good people. But I understand... Even Ange hesitated to kill that wounded man in Cross Ange, you could see it in her eyes. But it was pragmatically the best decision.

Having a character avoid killing is one thing... Having a character like Kenshin, Vash, or Edward Elric is another... Nobody in real life would be so vehemently opposed to killing that they'd risk their own lives. Now, as I said, Kenshin and Vash have complex reasons which makes them interesting.

But there's not wanting to kill... and there's being suicidally devoted to not killing.
 
i don't generally have a problem as people have said killing is the last resort ...but Rurouni Kenshin irritated me to no end ...and as anyone who knows any history will understand a reversed blade will kill just as quickly...but i suppose it would give you some control ...
 
i don't generally have a problem as people have said killing is the last resort ...but Rurouni Kenshin irritated me to no end ...and as anyone who knows any history will understand a reversed blade will kill just as quickly...but i suppose it would give you some control ...

I'll forgive Kenshin... his ideas are stupid. But if you see the Trust and Betrayal OVA, you'll understand why he never kills.

And his reverse blade sword can kill, Kenshin just fights at about 1/3rd of his actual strength
 
Maybe you are right. The problem is, in many cases to show emotions of characters, authors make them look indecisive or weak willed. I guess it's realistic to hesitate when it comes to killing someone, but if we play realism, then what about all those good guys who never ever considered killing that evil mastermind who turned their lives upside down, often by hurting their families and friends? I find it boring.
Acting despite emotions is sure cool. But isn't stoicism the highest level of it? After all, being stoic doesn't mean literally being unable to feel emotions (ok, in some cases it does...), but mastering their control. For me it's something to look up to. Of course everything can be overdone, even rational thinking.

But then again, it all depends on anime itself. I'm watching Psycho-Pass now and there I'm totally against killing.

And mind you, I'm still talking only about my feelings towards anime characters who refuse to kill, from "fun from watching" perspective. My opinion about real life could, or could not, be totally different. (I just feel like mentioning it to don't make this topic too serious)

That's just poor writing, as you can show an emotionally vulnerable character as a strong person without being stoic. And I would agree with you on the hyper-good-guy who never considers killing. I think in a situation where someone close to us is killed we would all harbour homicidal thoughts. We, as humans, are preternaturally violent, or at least attuned to the misfortune and suffering of others.

The news is an example because it reviews mostly bad shit happening to people all over the world, it exposes people's flaws, and we enjoy that. So reacting in a way that involved violent/homicidal thoughts is only natural. Whether we can actually go through with the act or live with it is another matter.

Stoicism I find boring because it presents an anti-hero that never displays emotion. I find that such people are cardboard cut-outs, they don't actually feel alive. Even psychopaths display more range of emotions than (badly written) stoic characters. Stoicism is okay if it's handled right, in most cases it isn't.

Killing in media seems to appeal to us because it's a simple solution to something bad. When you're watching an action movie you don't stop to consider the moral implications or social consequences of killing, your brain is engaged on an adrenaline high and you know, subconsciously, that it's all fake. Even in reality it's easy to consider killing the right and only thing to do when it's not you that had or has to pull the trigger.

I would never kill because of the consequences of murder... I will admit, if I could get away with it, there's lot of people I'd love to kill in reality.

Saying that is one thing, but how you would react with the gun in your hand is a whole different matter. Even you can't predict how you will react.

Yea... I agree, but it comes to the point where it's unreasonable... Like with Vash the Stampede. He takes his morality to a ridiculous degree. However, it's okay for him because considering his back story it makes sense.

Some people need that comfort that if they don't kill they won't have to live with the consequences. It frightens them just to know that they have that ability to end a person's life, because their own life is so important it's often difficult to reconcile the termination of another. There are circumstances that it does become ridiculous, however, but some people spare the life of a villain because to kill them would be seen as lowering themselves to the same savagery.

As to characters like Edward, like Kaiji said, he's thirteen.

He was trying to keep from getting caught. Sacrafices had to be made. The truth is that 90% of who he killed greatly benefitted the world. The other killings were the result of him trying not to get caught... his problem is that he wanted to save the world too much to where he felt the ends justified the means

He had no reason to kill the guy L set up on TV. That was just pure, selfish, playing at god. His ego couldn't take being called out publicly so he demonstrated his power. Light was never concerned about finding alternatives to problems, his answer was always the brutal and callous murder of people, often those that are just following the law or complicit to a crime by force.

His idea of a utopia was any crime, regardless of motive, was punishable by death. He established himself as a de facto tyrant ruler whereby everyone had to live in fear under his enforced values. Light was dangerously deluded and mad-drunk on power.

Even in developed nations, there's still people in this world who the world is better off without. Not all humans have life that's worth anything. I know people in real life who I'd not lose a minutes rest if I killed them and got away with it.

Maybe so, but it doesn't justify thought-crime punishment or the acts of characters like Light.

There is not value of life for all humans, only good people. But I understand... Even Ange hesitated to kill that wounded man in Cross Ange, you could see it in her eyes. But it was pragmatically the best decision.

Define "good." You see, what you define as good, someone else might define as bad. What you define as bad, someone else might see it as good. A good example is sex before marriage; it's well established that certain religious denominations consider it to be bad and "unholy," yet I could find you a good dozen people right now that consider sex outside wedlock to be a good thing.

When I ask you to define "good," I'm not asking for the dictionary definition, I'm asking what your moral standards consider to be "good" and how you define it by your experiences.

Having a character avoid killing is one thing... Having a character like Kenshin, Vash, or Edward Elric is another... Nobody in real life would be so vehemently opposed to killing that they'd risk their own lives. Now, as I said, Kenshin and Vash have complex reasons which makes them interesting.

But there's not wanting to kill... and there's being suicidally devoted to not killing.

And I'm not saying otherwise, but the decision to kill is ambiguous until a person is actually put into that situation and required to kill. How they react and how they react to the act is what defines them. A soldier is capable of killing because they know it's "shoot or be shot," a man facing down a robber in possession of a knife, not so much. You take an ordinary man and place him in a sudden life-or-death situation and he's bound to react quite differently to a trained soldier conditioned to expect those circumstances.
 
Hate them.

No but seriously, most of the time they piss me off. Depends on the situation. But if the whole show has been like, about killing the bad guys and really saving yourself, your friends or the world from even more troube, I really hate it if the (main) character gets all "holier-than-thou" when they finally get the chance to get rid of the baddie. Especially if the bad guy is like total scum and has been causing trouble all along and has absolutely no trace of humanity/kindness in him and everyone's staring at their screens, really waiting for some serious ass-kicking towards the bad guy... and then... "no wait I CHANGED MY MIND, we cannot, let's all live happily ever after!!" ARGH! In that moment I always wish the bad guy would give the "good guy" a good beating.

It's totally different if the villain kind of "evolves" during the show and if the writers manage to make you feel some sympathy towards him, then I understand if the good guys hesitate. It really depends on the show and the characters.
 
Killing is bad, I get that. But in anime/manga Im usually annoyed by those who dont want to kill them. Because they are to scared or think killing is bad there always appear problems once the villain escapes. They hurt their friends because they were relunctant to do anything.

I like my characters to be sadistic, heartless and bloodthirsty. They may be good and comedic but I also want them to have a very dark side. Like Naruto`s 3 tail form against Orochimaru or Ichigo as a Hollow vs Ulquiora.

Just plain evil/disturbing is also fine ;p
Like the entire cast of Hellsing Ultimate, Shiki, Lucy (Elfen Lied), Yuno + ruthless Yuki (Mirai Nikki). Nothing is as refreshing as seeing your enemies face splattered along a 100 meter long halways wall. Preferably combined with a cute laugh.

And I was expecting alot of crazy from Higurashi but so far its a little dissapointing. Accelerator from Railgun however looks interesting (I hope he doesnt die):)
 
It depends on who was sparred and how evil they were and how likely that decision is to come back and bite the MC in the @$$ later. A character should possess some basic common sense in addition to their morality and think about the consequences of letting them live. Although, if it's former villainous anti-heroes trying to atone and change than I would want them to stick to their new found convictions.

Honestly, Vash from Trigun and his philosophy and personality annoy the hell out of me though. I really wish Wolfwood would have been the main character in that show.
 
Based on the situation I can understand or become upset with them. If the person has been trying to kill you and has been killing others (like people you know also) then why would you even hesitate to end the person who is just going to kill an innocent bystander.
 
It depends on who was sparred and how evil they were and how likely that decision is to come back and bite the MC in the @$$ later. A character should possess some basic common sense in addition to their morality and think about the consequences of letting them live. Although, if it's former villainous anti-heroes trying to atone and change than I would want them to stick to their new found convictions.

Honestly, Vash from Trigun and his philosophy and personality annoy the hell out of me though. I really wish Wolfwood would have been the main character in that show.

^^^This sums up my opinions quite well.

If a character has just massacred an entire village/city/town, shows zero remorse, and is probably gonna kill more innocent people in the future, then why would the MC have any problem axing the killer? That just doesn't make any sense.:confused:
 
Overall, they annoy me.
We usually have badass main characters fighting villains who deserve nothing less than to burn in hell, yet they refuse to kill them because of their completely illogical ideologies.

Light Yagame was completely just in his actions... In fact, I'd say he's the greatest hero depicted in anime... not saying he's the greatest character, but he's the character who's perform the greatest act of good for the world ever depicted in anything ever. He was a hero to the entire planet and used his gift to make the world a better place... not by using the only way he knew how... but by using the only way possible to bring peace upon society

There I said it... if anything, the people trying to stop have literally been trying to stop the only solution for the worlds problems. At the end of deathnote
He's killed... and I said "well, there's goes the only possible method of peace and tranquility in this world, So let's give these officers a round of applause for returning the world to a violent war torn hellhole. Especially you L.. how you hypocritically used a human as a test subject to understand Light better

I agree with pretty much everything in the OP, but I cannot stress enough how spot on you are about Light Yagami. :thumbsup:

It depends on who was sparred and how evil they were and how likely that decision is to come back and bite the MC in the @$$ later. A character should possess some basic common sense in addition to their morality and think about the consequences of letting them live. Although, if it's former villainous anti-heroes trying to atone and change than I would want them to stick to their new found convictions.

Honestly, Vash from Trigun and his philosophy and personality annoy the hell out of me though. I really wish Wolfwood would have been the main character in that show.

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The whole idea of what Light was doing was delusional from beginning to end.
You want Light's "peace and tranquility"? Move to NorthBest-Korea.
Everybody is happy and content. Get back to work.

The Greatest Speech Ever Made.
It has nothing to do with Death Note, but at one point quite bluntly points out why Light's scheme would never "bring peace and tranquility" in the long run.
 
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