G
Guest
So is it the writer's fault for the show being dull, or is it simply a byproduct of the source material being awful stuff?
Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works TV 2
- Thread starter Naga
- Start date
ZetsubouKaiji
Well-Known Member
I think a lot of things have gone wrong with this adaptation. I haven't read the VN to confirm it, but since people seem to agree that this is a faithful adaptation then I am placing most of the blame on the source material. The shitty use of the characters and the constant asspulls are certainly coming from the source material.
However, the anime staff isn't blameless either. The direction has been pretty damn abysmal as well. The lack of passion and emotion in the voice acting, the daft storyboarding, the shitty looking CG are all on the studio. Considering the budget CG looks terrible and the characters look stiff when they're not in action. I really think Ufotable is just cashing in knowing that it will sell regardless.
However, the anime staff isn't blameless either. The direction has been pretty damn abysmal as well. The lack of passion and emotion in the voice acting, the daft storyboarding, the shitty looking CG are all on the studio. Considering the budget CG looks terrible and the characters look stiff when they're not in action. I really think Ufotable is just cashing in knowing that it will sell regardless.
G
Guest
Episode 18:
The reveal that everyone already knew. Really, not a whole lot happened. I really want Shinji to die, that little ****. And what exactly is the Golden Boy planning? Gil has me intrigued I bet that next week's episode is much better.
Taek
Well-Known Member
Pretty much all of this. Especially the voice acting, could Archer's VA phone it in anymore?
G
Guest
Nope.
The show would be SO much more interesting if the characters sounded like they had these things called emotions. Shirou and Archer are the worst, followed by Caster and Lancer. Saber is OK, Rin and Shinji are the only characters who emote when they talk.
Oh, and their faces are too sharp/pointy. That annoys me.
ZetsubouKaiji
Well-Known Member
I think it is a mistake to dismiss the discussion in this thread as mere hate. It's not like we're just saying this show suck over and over or saying we hate it. We're not being mindless, but instead actually discussing our view on flaws in the series. We use specific examples from the show when we want to prove a point and none of us froth when someone else tries to rebut those points we make. We may have are response, but I'd say we are far from just show haters. There's also nothing stopping you from posting your views on the show if they're positive. We welcome all kinds of points of view because it makes the thread more interesting.
And for my part I don't hate the show. I dislike it, but mostly it makes me feel bored. It's too boring for me to really hate it.
On Archer's voice actor...I can't blame him for phoning in those lines. They are dry and it is impossible for him to inject any passion into them. Especially because his philosophy is childish and the opposite end of Shiro's naivety.
And for my part I don't hate the show. I dislike it, but mostly it makes me feel bored. It's too boring for me to really hate it.
On Archer's voice actor...I can't blame him for phoning in those lines. They are dry and it is impossible for him to inject any passion into them. Especially because his philosophy is childish and the opposite end of Shiro's naivety.
saiyamar
Member
I'm not dismissing it as hate as I know you are seriously discussing the show... however I just think it feels so critical and negative it's hard to talk positively about the show here. :(
G
Guest
The animation during the fight scenes are awesome, and the opening and endings are great. There are some other positives, but my mind just went blank.
ZetsubouKaiji
Well-Known Member
Episode 7:
Meh, same problems as usual with dry dialogue and stiff characters. It makes long dialogue episodes like this a slog to watch.
And this week on Unlimited Flashbackworks the episode completely ignores Shiro. It's the big confrontation between Archer and Shiro, yet it's Saber that ends up getting some characterization. Shiro stands there saying nothing while Archer has an argument with Saber. The characters are so still that they never seem to have any internal life so Shiro doesn't even show any emotion at Archer's words. Shiro is supposed to be the main character and this was the time to give him some actual development. His entire philosophy is being called into question by his future self and he stands there with a blank look on his face while Saber tries to provide justification.
The Saber flashbacks this episode feel out of place. They're also pretty short and rushed. It felt like the studio didn't know where to place them or how. They bear some relevance to Shiro and Archer's conversation, but the episode makes it clear this isn't Saber's fight yet she's the only one doing any fighting.
Then we have to talk about Archer. His speeches just seem to make him immature. From what he was saying it seems like Shiro never grows up and instead becomes bitter because he can never see how childish his ideals are. Instead Archer just becomes a bitter nihilist believing everything to be pointless. Instead of being world weary, he seems like a peevish teenager that has just discovered the world is a cruel place sometimes. It's also a pretty weak argument for Shiro to kill himself. It boils down to "your ideals don't work in the real world so die."
Also Archer wanting Shiro to kill himself is just dumb. He exists beyond space and time so there's no reason to think if this Shiro kills himself then he'll be erased from existence. Even assuming things work out that way then it creates a time paradox since Archer would have never been there to convince Shiro to end his life. There's no situation where Archer's aim works out in his favor.
There was a chance for this episode to do something interesting. Shiro having a conversation with an essentially failed version of himself could have been interesting. Watching him having to reconcile his ideals with the harsh realities of the world would have lead to character growth and development. Archer and Shiro are two different character, even if they are versions of the same person so giving Archer a chance to speak doesn't develop Shiro at all. Archer is developing either because he's saying the same shit he always does and he's stuck in his own cynical ways. Not really looking forward to Shiro vs Archer next week.
The rest of the episode was okay I guess. The Kirei reveal was decent even if his character is off in this version. His character is Zero had a very specific philosophy and this version runs a bit counter to that. Rin finally learns he killed her father which lead to a nice reaction even if I really can't stand Rin. Then Lancer is forced to kill himself which means bye bye to the most charismatic member of cast. His part was short but I'll miss him because the best bit of this episode was
The Saber flashbacks this episode feel out of place. They're also pretty short and rushed. It felt like the studio didn't know where to place them or how. They bear some relevance to Shiro and Archer's conversation, but the episode makes it clear this isn't Saber's fight yet she's the only one doing any fighting.
Then we have to talk about Archer. His speeches just seem to make him immature. From what he was saying it seems like Shiro never grows up and instead becomes bitter because he can never see how childish his ideals are. Instead Archer just becomes a bitter nihilist believing everything to be pointless. Instead of being world weary, he seems like a peevish teenager that has just discovered the world is a cruel place sometimes. It's also a pretty weak argument for Shiro to kill himself. It boils down to "your ideals don't work in the real world so die."
Also Archer wanting Shiro to kill himself is just dumb. He exists beyond space and time so there's no reason to think if this Shiro kills himself then he'll be erased from existence. Even assuming things work out that way then it creates a time paradox since Archer would have never been there to convince Shiro to end his life. There's no situation where Archer's aim works out in his favor.
There was a chance for this episode to do something interesting. Shiro having a conversation with an essentially failed version of himself could have been interesting. Watching him having to reconcile his ideals with the harsh realities of the world would have lead to character growth and development. Archer and Shiro are two different character, even if they are versions of the same person so giving Archer a chance to speak doesn't develop Shiro at all. Archer is developing either because he's saying the same shit he always does and he's stuck in his own cynical ways. Not really looking forward to Shiro vs Archer next week.
The rest of the episode was okay I guess. The Kirei reveal was decent even if his character is off in this version. His character is Zero had a very specific philosophy and this version runs a bit counter to that. Rin finally learns he killed her father which lead to a nice reaction even if I really can't stand Rin. Then Lancer is forced to kill himself which means bye bye to the most charismatic member of cast. His part was short but I'll miss him because the best bit of this episode was
Meh, same problems as usual with dry dialogue and stiff characters. It makes long dialogue episodes like this a slog to watch.
Taek
Well-Known Member
Episode 19
In total agreement with ZK here
I feel less angry this week, more like the wasted potential has really hit home. F/Z proves that the premise can work, but F/SN falls at every hurdle.
In total agreement with ZK here
Lancer's death was a huge shame, but is actually the first death that makes much sense. Kirei disposes of anyone that is of no use to him anymore, which feels kind of in line with his F/Z self, so when Lancer disobeyed, he had no choice other than to make him kill himself. Disappointed though because he was the only character I really cared about in this show.
I figured out what the problem with Archer is, he's chuuni. He could literally have walked straight out of Inou Battle with his grimdark, nihilist speeches. This could have been the time that Shirou really questioned his motives, because throughout the entire show he's always banged on about being a Hero of justice, but again he remains static. To be fair, Archer is not the person to make anyone question anything, because he comes across as childish and bitter, and never makes a particularly reasoned argument. Saber put the fight up for Shirou, but even that felt out of place, and isn't her apparent wish here different than before? Maybe that's just my memory.
I figured out what the problem with Archer is, he's chuuni. He could literally have walked straight out of Inou Battle with his grimdark, nihilist speeches. This could have been the time that Shirou really questioned his motives, because throughout the entire show he's always banged on about being a Hero of justice, but again he remains static. To be fair, Archer is not the person to make anyone question anything, because he comes across as childish and bitter, and never makes a particularly reasoned argument. Saber put the fight up for Shirou, but even that felt out of place, and isn't her apparent wish here different than before? Maybe that's just my memory.
LinkSword
POPEE BELIEVER
Shirou proves yet again he is beyond retarded. Hard not to sympathise with Archer for
wanting to kill himself. It's like an adult has to coexist with his obnoxious fucking chuunibyou teenager past self, what an embarrassment.
Not that Archer's logic is that sound, mind you, but I'll take cynicism bordering in pretentiousness over childish shonen delusions any day. At least he realizes his mindset was utter bullshit even if all he's doing now is basically lashing out.
I wanted to punch something when Shirou said they were nothing alike. Of course you're not, dipshit. Because you have yet to be slapped in the face with the entirety of your ultra-naive idealism, and despite the fact your future self's here to ''warn'' you of where that leads you'd still trip on the same stones all over again because you are just. That. Goddamn. Stupid. The only chance you have of remotely averting that kind of fate is Rin beating some sense into you, and even then you'll be an idiot your whole life anyway.
TLDR - I miss Kiritsugu so much.
Not that Archer's logic is that sound, mind you, but I'll take cynicism bordering in pretentiousness over childish shonen delusions any day. At least he realizes his mindset was utter bullshit even if all he's doing now is basically lashing out.
I wanted to punch something when Shirou said they were nothing alike. Of course you're not, dipshit. Because you have yet to be slapped in the face with the entirety of your ultra-naive idealism, and despite the fact your future self's here to ''warn'' you of where that leads you'd still trip on the same stones all over again because you are just. That. Goddamn. Stupid. The only chance you have of remotely averting that kind of fate is Rin beating some sense into you, and even then you'll be an idiot your whole life anyway.
TLDR - I miss Kiritsugu so much.
ZetsubouKaiji
Well-Known Member
Seconded,
a character that was flawed in an interesting way and one that realized he was flawed, but didn't know how to change it which leads to his downfall. He has an actual character arc and an internal struggle. In comparison Shiro does come off as a stubborn child incapable of self reflection.
G
Guest
Thirded, and agree with everything else. I'll use pictures to illustrate how I felt about the episode:
This is going to be a great episode!
Shut up Lancer.
Oh no...Shinji....what am I watching?!
Lancer still blathering on....
Kirei's BACK!!!
.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141116065445)
Why Lancer? Why do you always end up killing yourself? You were interesting!
Next episode has to be better.
Shut up Lancer.
Oh no...Shinji....what am I watching?!
Lancer still blathering on....
Kirei's BACK!!!
Why Lancer? Why do you always end up killing yourself? You were interesting!
Next episode has to be better.
nezra132
Member
Not gonna touch the plot details and execution. It's flawed. The VN was flawed, too. I loved it, and I still devour everything with a Fate stamp on it, but I understand where the issues are.
The VN came first, written by Nasu. The Fate series falls in the same universe as Kara no Kyoukai and his other works. And that's Nasu's strong point- universes. The world, its history and organizations, the different types of magic and how they work, mechanics behind the Grail War, even powerlevels - Nasu does those quite well. His actual stories are more or less shounen fantasy, which isn't inherently bad but doesn't usually pass as great literature either. His biggest problem is characters; Nasu just doesn't write good characters.
Gen Urobuchi wrote the Fate/Zero novels. They were an original work using Nasu's universe and the existing information about the Fourth Grail War and its participants, which wasn't much. Nasu liked them and canonized them, and then those got adapted into the Fate/Zero anime. There were a number of scenes torn from the novels - most of which were Urobuchi's particular flair of grimdark - but for the most part the anime was an excellent adaptation of the novel series.
The reason F/Z is considered better is because Urobuchi took Nasu's universe, organizations and laws (which are excellent, IMO) and then created the story and characters himself. Unlike Nasu, Urobuchi excels at both story and characters. This is why F/Z Gil and Kirei are so superior to F/SN Gil and Kirei - because Urobuchi took existing characters and elaborated on them, made them human.
I love this adaptation because I love the Fate universe, but I understand and acknowledge its flaws.
As a last little mention (after reading everything on this thread), it's not like F/Z didn't have its own eye-rollingly dark moments.
Like Caster,
Or the Grail itself,
Among others, just as a few examples.
Gen Urobuchi wrote the Fate/Zero novels. They were an original work using Nasu's universe and the existing information about the Fourth Grail War and its participants, which wasn't much. Nasu liked them and canonized them, and then those got adapted into the Fate/Zero anime. There were a number of scenes torn from the novels - most of which were Urobuchi's particular flair of grimdark - but for the most part the anime was an excellent adaptation of the novel series.
The reason F/Z is considered better is because Urobuchi took Nasu's universe, organizations and laws (which are excellent, IMO) and then created the story and characters himself. Unlike Nasu, Urobuchi excels at both story and characters. This is why F/Z Gil and Kirei are so superior to F/SN Gil and Kirei - because Urobuchi took existing characters and elaborated on them, made them human.
I love this adaptation because I love the Fate universe, but I understand and acknowledge its flaws.
As a last little mention (after reading everything on this thread), it's not like F/Z didn't have its own eye-rollingly dark moments.
Like Caster,
who spends the majority of the series kidnapping and murdering little kids in various innovative and torturous ways. Even more fun in the novel, where
he makes their organs into various musical instruments while keeping the kids alive with magic. Fun.
Or the Grail itself,
trolling Kiritsugu by giving him a fantasy vision of him blowing Illya's brains out as a real awkward metaphor for him continuing to embrace his own flawed ideals by sacrificing his family in order to save humanity.
Among others, just as a few examples.
G
Guest
So F/Z is basically an adaptation of a fanfic? That's interesting; maybe they should've hired Urobuchi and let him change the story where he saw fit.
nezra132
Member
Yes. F/Z was more or less a fancy, glorified, novel-length fanfic of a historical event briefly referenced in Nasu's other works and written by a guy who just so happens to be an established successful author. Nasu read it, liked it, changed a few details and canonized it. Then it got popular enough for an anime adaptation, but the production studio took out some of the more "disturbing" scenes
like musical organs and Sakura's bug rape
But because Urobuchi is such a good author (often), he was able to create sympathetic, complex characters with realistic dilemmas and actions. He applied these to a solid, well-done existing universe and set of mechanics (Nasuverse) and the result was a work that is, in many people's opinions, superior to even the original VN.
LinkSword
POPEE BELIEVER
On Caster's
instrument manufacturing
On Kiritsugu and the Grail, however, I thought that was perfect.
It felt especially well thought out because once he shot Ilya's image, rejecting the Grail and embracing his ideals, he unknowingly triggered the destruction of an entire city, which in the end was a much worse result than just seizing the Grail and controlling it to the best of his ability. He decided on the more painful course of action for himself with the most gruesome imagery possible, and then it was all for naught. I thought it was the ultimate 'anti-catharsis' for the character and while shooting ''Ilya'' in the head was shocking, I felt that worked well thematically here. I personally found strangling ''Iris'' to be more grimdark and over the top, even though I wasn't bothered by it within the context.
nezra132
Member
I get where you're coming from, and I agree that it serves as pretty decent symbolism, but I still think it was a bit over the top.
At the conclusion of the fight between Kiritsugu and Kirei, the overflowing Grail mud covers them and grants them both visions of the Grail's power as told through the Grail's sentience, Angra Mainyu. During these visions, Kiritsugu is pitted against his own form of idealism and shown the magnitude of suffering he will inflict (the boat game), but then he personally takes it a step further and "kills" his family in his mind to embrace it. Well done, but a bit excessively dark IMO. Then, after the vision ends, Kiritsugu kills Kirei and orders Saber to destroy the Grail, and the resulting expulsion of volatile Grail mud burns down that section of Fuyuki. Kirei, who personally embraced the Grail as a sentient being, is ironically reincarnated immediately after being killed.
This moment from F/Z is again referenced in this adaptation of UBW, when
we get a flashback to Illya, at the moment the Grail was destroyed, getting her own ethereal visit from Angra Mainyu, which corrupts her and kills off most of her emotions. And again, told through a demented mutation of Iris. Still, another fun original tidbit added by the producers in order to reference F/Z more. There are a lot of those.
The second scene you mentioned seemed less unnecessarily dark, IMO.
Killing Iris in such a fashion seemed somewhat befitting a sadist who is newly discovering his true nature, but without feeling too forced or unnecessary (after all, he merely strangles her and breaks her neck; he doesn't even really draw it out). Specifically regarding Kirei's actions, I think the whole setup with Kariya, Aoi and the already-murdered Tokiomi in the church was far more grimdark and completely unnecessary with regards to plot points, relevant events or even character loyalties (especially considering Kariya was already doing everything Kirei told him to do at this point).
LinkSword
POPEE BELIEVER
I think you misunderstood who I meant there at the end.
Not Kirei, but Kiritsugu. In Kiritsugu's vision from the Holy Grail, he first shoots the image of Ilya, and then when the image of Iris rushes to her lifeless body and screams at Kiritsugu for doing it, he grabs her neck and strangles ''her'' while the Grail casts on him the curse that'll eventually kill him. Even if both are just visions and not the real people, being choked to death is a far worse way to go than a bullet to the head, and at least to me it feels considerably more gruesome despite the victim being an adult and not a child. Plus this was done while ''she'' was sobbing and suffering for her fake daughter's death. Ilya's image just died without even understanding she was going to.
Anyway, I was fine with that because of how it tied in to Kiritsugu's fatally flawed ideology, but I can see why others wouldn't. Rather than shock value material, I saw it as strong, legitimate imagery.
And naturally I had no issue with Kirei killing Iris, my emotions for the character aside.
Anyway, I was fine with that because of how it tied in to Kiritsugu's fatally flawed ideology, but I can see why others wouldn't. Rather than shock value material, I saw it as strong, legitimate imagery.
And naturally I had no issue with Kirei killing Iris, my emotions for the character aside.