Scrapped Princess

*High Fives Kaz*
Breautifully, written, man. All the same sentiments here too. I've been a Scrapped Princess fanatic since about 2000 (I started by accident with the CDs and novels/manga. I was meaning to buy the Dethroned Princess -totally different series. Another reason why I hate anime junkies- but got Scrapped by mistake. I've never been happier)

True, the story arc for the anime is very different from the other mediums the story's been told in but I find it's an amazingly well-done change. The concept of living a false world is nothing new by any means, and the Peacemakers don't handle the situation the way the machines in The Matrix do either. All in all, it's no more similar than Daijaki or Logan's Run is to The Matrix.

[Prisoner1138]

i understand kaz's post, but im perfectly entitled to my opinion that the past few episodes of scrapped princess have borrowed way too much material from 1 source, that even aside from a certain bad actor i cant stand due to the combination of material into one big pile of crap. hell, i never liked logans run either

[-=Masakari=-]

I think the general point is simply this:

Yes, Scrapped Princess has shown plot points similar to some plot points in The Matrix recently. However, that doesn't mean that it was purposely written to resemble it, since many other examples of the use of these story elements exist. SP just happened to come out at a time when The Matrix is making news. I mean, I can find as many similarities to Matrix in the end of the Makubex Arc of Get Backers or in Lain (I won't go into detail as not to spoil) as I can in SP.

And hell, wasn't there a whole big deal when the first Matrix came out about how much of it was heavily inspired by classic fairy tales and the Bible?

That said, if SP starts referring to Pacifica as 'The One,' I might be upset. ^_^

[Prisoner1138]

no, i dont recall any big deal like that when the matrix came out. i recall a few nutcases saying all kidns of crap, but not any more than i've seen with any other movie.

and yea, im still annoyed since i was watching and enjoying a fantasy show that has turned into a big pile of sci-fi crap, which wasnt why i was watching sp.

[kaz]

Prisoner1138:

That's fine; you're entitled to your opinion. I just found issue with the way you phrased your opinion -- labeling Scrapped Princess as "bullshit" and most recently as "a big pile of sci-fi crap" because you think it resembles the Matrix too much.

I'm going to go into a bit more detail here. Once again, you are indeed entitled to your opinion. I just think you're wrong. Just because the Matrix apparently left a bad taste behind, I would not equate Scrapped Princess to it.

For starters, Pacifica is not a soldier. She is not a warrior. Her name is derived from the Latin for peaceful nature/tranquility. She doesn't even want to be a leader. Neo is a full-blown messiah. He is a fighter, through and through. The character of Neo is a thoroughly different concept than that of Pacifica's. What they share is a destiny and latent powers -- these two qualities you can find in a great deal of other protagonists of fantasy/sci-fi novels, anime, comics, etc.

The setting of the Matrix's real world is a world torn by war; the Matrix itself is a modern city of 1999. The world of Scrapped Princess is a thriving medieval civilization; for those who live in that world, there is no distinction between their world and the real world -- theirs is the real world. Both the Matrix and Scrapped Princess draw upon the idea that the reality we know is in fact a prison. This is not a new idea, not to fantasy/sci-fi and not to academia. Philosophers through the ages have debated and pondered the idea of what we conceive as reality being an illusion. Try Plato's Allegory of the Cave, for instance.

Can you find a comparison for the Guardians, Shannon and Raquel, in the Matrix? Morpheus and Trinity? Neo saves them; they do not save him. In fact, there are no direct comparisons for most of the characters in the Matrix to those in Scrapped Princess. The Neo/Pacifica connection is limited at best. The Peacemaker/Agent idea is perhaps the strongest. Morpheus, the lord of dreams, the prophet-king. Trinity, the damsel-in-distress cum warrior woman. There are no equivalent characters in Scrapped Princess. If you go deeper, into the character relationships, Scrapped Princess focuses on the brother/sister relationship between Shannon and Pacifica a lot; it focuses on Pacifica's glaring weaknesses and hidden strengths. But Pacifica is not a hero, not yet at least. Neo fell into the role of the hero quickly and easily. The Matrix focuses on the love story between Neo and Trinity, the mentor relationship between Morpheus and Neo, the messiah relationship between Neo and the people of Zion, and the nemesis of Agent Smith. Pacifica has no Agent Smith. The Peacemakers want to kill her to retain control, but there's no direct rival.

My statement about bullet-time was to make a point. I can make more blunt statements like it. For example: Pacifica is a whiny little brat of a girl, not an overconfident hacker dude. Which, by the way, makes it all the more admirable when she shows change or growth.

I'm beginning to ramble, so, in summation: I think you should shove aside your preconceptions and stop labeling a show before it has even reached its conclusion, because, in my opinion, the similarities you find so disappointing are not as significant as you perceive.

[Prisoner1138]

ok, heres the problem, maybe you just arent getting it, or maybe i didnt make it clear enough.

sp resembling the matrix has nothing to do with me calling it a big pile of sci-fi bullshit. sp resembling the matrix is one issue. the fact that i continued watching this show afetr the first 2 or 3 episodes was because i enjoyed it as a mideival fantasy type anime. they could have thrown in elements from startrek and i wouldnt care because it'd still be one big pile of crap.

its like going to starbucks, ordering a caramel macchiato, drinking it down, and then when you pull the lid off to get to the fam on the bottom of it, you look into your cup and find a cat turd. not that i have anything against sci fi, but cat turds belong in litter boxes, much like sci-fi belongs in sci-fi series

so in short, sp turning into a big pile of sci-fi bullshit, has nothing to do with the matrix, since it could have been anything sci-fi that it compared to and i'd still not be happy about it

[-=Masakari=-]

Well, even if you somehow missed it, pretty much all serious discussion of The Matrix movies has revolved around the fact that they're heavily symbolic and draws on all kinds of long-existing ideas. The idea that the world we know is possibly all a deception forced down on us by an evil force to keep us under control has been around at LEAST since Descartes wrote his earliest works on metaphysics almost 400 years ago, and I wouldn't even want to GUESS how old the idea of a single individual chosen to wield a special power to save his people is, since it would certainly entail going back at least two millenia.

I mean christ, the old Planet of the Apes movies involve humans being subjugated after falling victim to a violent attack and being forced to live in a backwards society. One character emerges through unnatural circumstances to lead his people against their oppressors, and eventually discovers relics of a technologically advanced past that help him fight. Sounds pretty familiar, huh? Until Scrapped Princess says SOMETHING about reality being an illusion or has Pacifica don a black trenchcoat, it seems a lot more similar to that venerable series than it does to The Matrix.

And this sci fi stuff should hardly be a surprise to anyone who's been paying any amount of attention to the show. Go back and rewatch the first 5 seconds of episode 1. Or what about the BUGs in episode 5? Or the fact that magic spells draw geometric shapes in the air as they're being cast? Anyway, that's enough for now. I have made no secret of the fact that I haven't been happy with the past three episodes, for reasons that have nothing to do with The Matrix. However, I have faith in the people behind this show, and certainly won't be giving up on it anytime soon.

P.S. If 'SP sux now' really is your only point, I'd note that this thread is called 'Scrapped Princess DISCUSSION Thread.' If you're unhappy with the turn the show has taken, you could at least attempt to argue it in an intelligent way instead of the constant references to dog shit...

[kaz]

All right, so you don't like Scrapped Princess anymore because of the introduction of sci-fi elements, period. Like Masakari said, it shouldn't be that much of a surprise.

Originally Posted by Prisoner1138

its like going to starbucks, ordering a caramel macchiato, drinking it down, and then when you pull the lid off to get to the fam on the bottom of it, you look into your cup and find a cat turd. not that i have anything against sci fi, but cat turds belong in litter boxes, much like sci-fi belongs in sci-fi series

For me, it was like finding extra caramel. Not a cat turd. I'll repost something I said in my first response:

Originally Posted by kaz

I'm pretty sure that the theme of a scientifically advanced civilization bringing about its own downfall, and the rise of a medieval-level civilization after it (with all the fantasy trappings, such as magic), is not a rare one in the fantasy genre. The only specific example that comes to mind at the moment is the recent "Voyage of the Jerle Shannara" series by Terry Brooks; it's a fun read, and shares some commonalities with Scrapped Princess's story, but by no means are they "rip-offs." From the first few episodes, I too inferred that Scrapped Princess would be a standard, though well-executed, entry in the fantasy anime genre, but rather than be shocked at the revelations, I've been pleasantly surprised. Little clues have been dropped here and there, before the actual exposition of the sci-fi aspect of the story, so I don't feel let down in any way.

You can give it a shot, or not, and that's your prerogative, but the language and articulation you use give me no incentive whatsoever to consider your opinion as a valid one -- that the introduction of sci-fi elements reduces the worth or value of the series. I agree with Masakari that the past few episodes haven't been all too exciting (closer to "cat turd" level than to "caramel macchiato foam" level), but I am eager to see what comes after the heavy-handed exposition.

And as for this...

Originally Posted by Prisoner1138

sp resembling the matrix has nothing to do with me calling it a big pile of sci-fi bullshit.

...What happened to your previous stance?

Originally Posted by Prisoner1138

im perfectly entitled to my opinion that the past few episodes of scrapped princess have borrowed way too much material from 1 source, that even aside from a certain bad actor i cant stand due to the combination of material into one big pile of crap

From what I can gather, you're saying here that Scrapped Princess is using too much material from the Matrix and that that inclusion of sci-fi flavored material is what has created your distaste for the series. So, if Scrapped Princess introduced the theme of widespread artificial intelligence and the rights thereof, you'd dislike the inclusion of material from Isaac Asimov's works? Oh, wait, that was in the Matrix too -- therefore it must've been stolen from the Matrix, and not from Asimov.

[Prisoner1138]

oh ffs..

ok, first off just because i used an extremely negative wording, that has no change on the "value" of my opinion. you either take it into consideration or you dont.

they could have taken the material from star trek. and ya know what i would have done? i would have said they had taken material from star trek. and i'd still say i didnt like it.

you yourself said, quoted, and even made bold that you thought the show would be a nice entry into the fantasy genre. so did i. and i wanted to see a fantasy show. not a sci-fi show. you may have liked how it developed into some sci-fi crap, but i didnt, simple as that. i happen to enjoy fantasy shows, and from what i've seen over the years, a decent one is rare. hell, i cant remember any good swords and sorcery shows i've watched in the past year. or probably longer. i watched record of the lodoss war ages ago, as well as fushigi yuugi. and altho star ocean ex had some sci-fi in it, that wasnt dominating the show and it turned out to be decent.

and nor am i saying that sci-fi equates to a cat turd, im simply saying it doesnt belong there.

so no, sp resemblign the matrix has nothing to do with me calling it a pile of sci-fi bullshit, because i would have said exactly the same thing had it resembled star trek, star wars, battlestar galactica, or whatever the hell else. and i wanted to watch a fantasy series, not a scifi series like you seem to be fine with. i dont get whats so hard to understand about this, but whatever. deal with it. we dont agree, simple as that.

and masakari,

theres a big difference between some mechanical bugs, which could have very well been a magical device like in mahou senshi riui, and suddenly space aliens and battleships being thrown in your face. and what do magic spells drawing geometric shapes have to do with anything? they could be magical runic shapes for all you knew, doesnt mean that its some sci-fi thing. that was just silly of you to even try and point out masakari. and as far as the first 5 seconds of episode 1, i wrote that off as maybe some people in the future were reviewing a history of their culture on a computer, or maybe some intelligent life form was just observing them, not trying to rule them.

and how is my method of discussing it unintelligent? i've been told my opinion is worthless simply because someone doesnt agree with my negative tone, and i never compared it to dogshit. my analogy was pointing out something unexpected ending up in a place where i didnt want it. thats pretty simple and to the point as far as im concerned. and yes, this is a scrapped princess discussion thread. however i dont recall there ever being any sort of rule stating that you shouldnt discuss how or why you DONT like a series, especially when you've been staying just as current on episodes as everyone else has up to this point. especially when you take into account the way the thread started to begin with, i think im perfectly entitled to point out i dont like the show, and then defend my opinions when people try and point out that they have ltitle value simply because i said the word "shit" or whatever other vague reasoning it was. ould it have been better if i had just posted "i like scrapped pricness because pacifica is hot" or something with no real thought behind it at all? that doesnt seem very intelligent. and i dont see why people are allwoed to post "dumb" crap and thats perfectly ok, but the moment someone defends their negative opinion, thats bad. it's not like im throwing fits trying to bash or defend AJ everytime its mentioned in any thread.

[kaz]

Originally Posted by Prisoner1138

ok, first off just because i used an extremely negative wording, that has no change on the "value" of my opinion. you either take it into consideration or you dont.

I'm not saying your opinion is worthless to everyone. I'm saying that it's worthless to me. I'm saying I, personally, don't see much reason to take any stock in it -- that is, it does nothing to dissuade me from my own opinion. It's true that I did attack your argument in more ways than just responding to the points of the argument -- I went after the way you worded things, because that's important to me. My main issue was with the way you connected the Matrix to Scrapped Princess. Now that you've dropped that issue, all that's left is opinion -- and I don't take yours into consideration.

Originally Posted by Prisoner1138

you may have liked how it developed into some sci-fi crap, but i didnt, simple as that.

I could argue the semantics of this statement, but that'd be pointless, so I'll just say this: yes, I'm intrigued by the sci-fi elements introduced into the series, and yes, I recognize that you are not, and in fact have a strong dislike for them.

Originally Posted by Prisoner1138

so no, sp resemblign the matrix has nothing to do with me calling it a pile of sci-fi bullshit, because i would have said exactly the same thing had it resembled star trek, star wars, battlestar galactica, or whatever the hell else. and i wanted to watch a fantasy series, not a scifi series like you seem to be fine with. i dont get whats so hard to understand about this, but whatever. deal with it.

Thank you for clarifying this. What led me to believe that the Matrix had an influence on your decision to dislike Scrapped Princess was the way you worded your statements.

Originally Posted by Prisoner1138

ould it have been better if i had just posted "i like scrapped pricness because pacifica is hot" or something with no real thought behind it at all? that doesnt seem very intelligent. and i dont see why people are allwoed to post "dumb" crap and thats perfectly ok, but the moment someone defends their negative opinion, thats bad.

I know this was directed to Masakari, but I'd like to reply. The reason why I responded to your post was because I disagreed with it, and wanted to argue against your statements. I disregard the kind of posts you mention above because they merit no such debate.