Clannad

[FalseDawn]

Originally Posted by AirCommodore

Fair enough. I personally would have used 'sexist' over 'misogynist', but that's the nomenclature that was being used.

I think misogynistic is a little more menacing though. Like chauvinistic. It does imply a grave wrong, whereas I think Clannad's faults are more a lack of intelligent thought into characterisation, compartmentalising all the female characters into their one base trait, "liking Tomoya." In effect, I think Clannad's no more misogynistic than a teenage boy who just doesn't understand women - and yeah, there are series that do understand and portray a whole host of varying female characters (your list is good, Air - I just thought of Planetes too), it's just rather unlikely to find them in the harem genre, that seems to be written by men who haven't progressed beyond their teenage mind, for teenage boys who enjoy the idea of dating games.

[FireWalker]

I'm not convinced - I don't think Clannad is misogynist at all, and more sentimental than sexist. Since I enjoyed it and recommended it to female friends and relatives, it would be nice to hear an argument backed by specifics about offensive or distasteful elements.
I'd like to see more than "it's a harem story, and harem stories are bad, so avoid it."
I do understand that the anime was developed from dating-game material, but I think it largely transcends that, although there are a couple of places where it failed.

I don't agree that the anime storytelling is guilty of

compartmentalising all the female characters into their one base trait, "liking Tomoya."

Going through the list one more time, I think that label can only be fairly applied to 1 secondary character.

- Ryou is less defined than the others and is clearly in the story only to have a crush on Tomoya and set up a dynamic with Kyou, so she fits the label and I understand she could be irritating. Note that she's not one of the 5 "heroines."
- Kotome is defined almost entirely by her traumatic past leading to her eccentric present, and is there mostly as someone for Tomoya and the others to help. It's a thin characterization, but there's almost nothing about "liking Tomoya" - the only hint is her part in the "everyone-brings-breakfast" which seems like a holdover from the story origins. I could do without that scene, but it doesn't define the character. I agree that her story is thin.
- Nagisa is defined by her drive to tell her story overcoming her shyness and limitations.
She doesn't pursue Tomoya; although they gradually become close, "liking" romantically isn't a driver for her behavior.
- Tomoyo is strong, dynamic and has her own friends and ambitions. We eventually see that she becomes interested in Tomoya, but she never makes it overt, and Tomoya doesn't return her interest. The "liking" is only a small part of her role in the story - not any more important than the comic relief of her battles with Sunohara.
- Kyou is more overtly interested, at first on Ryou's behalf and then clearly for herself, but even so most of her scenes aren't about "liking Tomoya" - she is memorable and part of the group dynamic regardless of how the romantic angle plays out. The ep17 storage locker scene jars a little, clearly a holdover from the gaming origin, but it's played out as a farce and perhaps a moment of temporary insanity, which lessens the harm to the narrative. I would agree it's a flaw - I think Kyou's reaction is out of character.
- Fuko is a child needing help, and doesn't like Tomoya much. She is there to inspire sentiment and show the group bonding in her aid - thin, but not harem material.
- Senai and Mei are both very memorable supporting characters who are not defined by "liking Tomoya" at all to my eyes.

The story does center on the growth of its protagonist, Tomoya, but not exclusively, and romance is only a secondary part of the development that takes place.

Tomoya x Nagisa evolves very slowly and the end is a bit of a surprise.
The entire show is extremely chaste - no holding hands, no kissing, and almost no word of romance until the final episode.
The apparent interest of Kyou and Tomoyo in Tomoya are mostly implied - there is no overt pursuit - and it doesn't define their characters, because the story would still hang together if you took out the few scenes that make their interest obvious.

Finally, while I can agree that

harem series in general are problematic

I think there are specific elements needed to fairly label a show a harem:
- multiple females irrationally focused on one male (usually unexceptional)
- those female characters defined shallowly and solely by their relationship to that male
- the narrative focuses on the sexual aspects of those relationships, "objectifying" the women
[Obviously, flip roles for reverse harem.]
I think Clannad's writers removed most of these elements and therefore the series as presented is not a harem, regardless of its gaming origins. Just the presence of a love triangle or even polygon does not make a story a harem.

The story may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't think it's guilty of the charges leveled at it in the last few posts.

Thoughts?

[Pidjiken]

Originally Posted by FireWalker

I think there are specific elements needed to fairly label a show a harem:
- multiple females irrationally focused on one male (usually unexceptional)
- those female characters defined shallowly and solely by their relationship to that male
- the narrative focuses on the sexual aspects of those relationships, "objectifying" the women
[Obviously, flip roles for reverse harem.]
I think Clannad's writers removed most of these elements and therefore the series as presented is not a harem, regardless of its gaming origins. Just the presence of a love triangle or even polygon does not make a story a harem.

The story may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't think it's guilty of the charges leveled at it in the last few posts.

Thoughts?

Clannad is definitely a Harem. Arguing against that is like trying to claim that there are no peanuts in peanut butter.

[FireWalker]

Definitely, because ...?

[captaincrunch]

I think you are trying to define a harem in your own words in an attempt to exclude Clannad from being tagged as one, but there's really no set definition. Just because a lead ends up with a single girl doesn't mean it's not a harem and harems don't need to focus on shallowness or ecchi. It's simply a series in which there are potential love interests for the lead, even if those never go anywhere.

Take a look at the cover for the series and you can easily tell the tag fits.



Perhaps you are assuming harem has a negative connotation. That's not always the case.

[FireWalker]

Thanks, captain.
Certainly part of the story is multiple potential love interests for the lead (and an even bigger part of the packaging and marketing as Exhibit A proves.)
The criteria I proposed to

fairly label a show a harem

were to isolate the properties that would make it unenjoyable for typical female viewers, coming from the premise that the harem label was always negative and problematic, and the suggestion from some that the show exhibited misogyny which by definition is a bad property to have.

If there is a looser definition of harem that is simply having multiple potential love interests for the lead - probably the minimum number is 3 - then I could agree that Clannad fits that definition but then contest the assumption that harem = problematic or harem = misogyny.
From your comment

Perhaps you are assuming harem has a negative connotation. That's not always the case.

it seems you would agree.

I think I prefer a stricter definition because "harem" has for me a strongly negative connotation. It was a while before I tried it myself because of seeing that tag, and it feels unnatural to tell a female friend or relative "It's a harem, but you'd like it."

[Pidjiken]

Just noticed I was responded to, but the Cpt covered it exactly so yea.


Simplified

Consider chick = Possible Route the series could take

1 chick is a Romance

2 chicks is a Triangle

3 or more chicks is a Harem

A selection at the end of the series does not stop it from being a Harem series.

[Lightness20]

So in conclusion, Clannad is absolutely, 100% a "Harem", however it dose not trip over the same stereotypical things which are displayed in many other anime which bear the tag harem.