How to deal with US-versions of anime? (Specifically, Robotech / Macross, etc)

(Preliminary note: I haven't seen the Robotech series, or Macross)

Some time ago, people were requesting for me to add the Robotech titles. I had a long chat with various site members and we finally decided to put up the Robotech titles even though they are US-produced (though iirc, one of them is Japanese?). We also, in tandem, put up the Macross titles that the Robotech series are comprised of.

As a general rule we don't put up US titles, so this was an exception. On the same exception note, we do have a few Korean titles in the database.

However, now, I'm wondering if this sets an odd precedent and would like input from the community.

Should we include US titles if they're closely linked with a true anime (ie, from or made by staff from Japan), or should we be purists and leave it all out?

So for example, would we leave up the Robotech titles with a marker that they're US-based, and then also have the Macross titles (and just good relations info explaining how they're linked)? Or instead, should we JUST list the Macross titles and no mention of the Robotech ones?

Discuss!

I haven't seen Robotech either but from what I understand it's a couple of distinct anime series - Macross, Mospeada and Southern Cross - edited together to form a coherent whole, which the original anime are not. They're not like, say, the original Transformers cartoon, which is a US-produced show even if it was based on a toyline whose designs were originally made by the Japanese.

My opinion is that the American title should be included as an 'alternate title' of the anime (or the main title, either way) but they shouldn't be listed as seperate series. I'm fairly certain all three 'Robotech' anime are already up.

but that would imply the american titles for all three robotechs would be added to all of the macross series they're attached to - that would be very confusing for the users, i think

It's the situation you have already, actually:

Robotech: The Macross Saga (aka 'Super Dimension Fortress Macross')
Robotech: The New Generation (aka 'Genesis Climber Mospeada')
Super Dimensional Cavalry Southern Cross (aka 'Choujikuu Kidan Southern Cross')

Of the three the first two have their Robotech names instead of names relating to the original Japanese program, only Southern Cross is identified by its original name albeit in English. I don't see much problem with how it is now, though I suppose one could argue for flipping the order of the first two series's names and an identifier of Southern Cross being part of the Robotech saga.

Opinion: All separate releases of anime and anime-influenced works should be included in the database.

Reasons:
Anime is technically defined as "Japanese animation", so from the purist standpoint, non-Japanese works should not be included. However, I find the purist argument to be quite detrimental to the anime community, as there are plenty of derivatives that are worth mention (and most definitely inclusion) in the Anime Planet database.

The most common understanding (and colloquial use) of the term anime is a "Japanese-styled motion picture animation" or "a style of animation developed in Japan". In other words, it is expected that all technically non-anime works that meet this definition be included in the database by every non-purist out there.

And from the ethos perspective: does anyone actually look at a purist with respect, or with contempt? I would consider purism in the context of anime to be a dogmatic and snobbish pursuit. There's really no reason for it, and you gain nothing from it.

I opt for a more complete database. Yes, Robotech is the US adaptation of SDF, but it happens to differ from the SDF storyline quite a bit. It is my standpoint that since SDF and Robotech were published separately (even though the are adaptations of the same storyline), they should be considered as two different works, and should thus be included in the AP database via two separate entries.

I believe that anything that stands as a separate work, regardless of its similarity to any other work or country of origin, should have its own entry in the Anime Planet database. Anime is defined by its Japanese style, not the country of origin.

Almost forgot... So in the context of the Robotech argument, I would vote for separate entries, but a synopsis that helps flush out the relationship between the different titles. I don't think aliasing them quite cuts it, as certain people would like to know the differences between each.

id imagine a better solution than putting something in the synopsis would be the relations area, as synopses are supposed to not have anything review-style in them...

True. That works.

I'm a purist. Even if they are closely linked, I'd stick with completely leaving US-stuff out. You otherwise start walking that very blurry line. Before you know it, people will be going 'Yeah, you have THAT on the database? So why not THIS?' And since you'll find it difficult to come up with good arguments, you'll be screwed.

For example, why put up Korean anime but not manhwa? You know what I mean? If it isn't by a Japanese studio, it ain't anime. Even if Disney randomly decided to remake Spirited Away with a similar style and everything, keep it out. And that's my view.

VivisQueen said:

I'm a purist. Even if they are closely linked, I'd stick with completely leaving US-stuff out. You otherwise start walking that very blurry line. Before you know it, people will be going 'Yeah, you have THAT on the database? So why not THIS?' And since you'll find it difficult to come up with good arguments, you'll be screwed.

For example, why put up Korean anime but not manhwa? You know what I mean? If it isn't by a Japanese studio, it ain't anime. Even if Disney randomly decided to remake Spirited Away with a similar style and everything, keep it out. And that's my view.

Click to expand...

I second that! ^^

VivisQueen said:

I'm a purist. Even if they are closely linked, I'd stick with completely leaving US-stuff out. You otherwise start walking that very blurry line. Before you know it, people will be going 'Yeah, you have THAT on the database? So why not THIS?' And since you'll find it difficult to come up with good arguments, you'll be screwed.

For example, why put up Korean anime but not manhwa? You know what I mean? If it isn't by a Japanese studio, it ain't anime. Even if Disney randomly decided to remake Spirited Away with a similar style and everything, keep it out. And that's my view.

Click to expand...

I have to say, I agree. Contrary to kenaniah, I define anime as from its country of origin NOT the style. If it were based purely on the style then surely things like Atama Yama and La Maison en Petits Cubes wouldn't be anime because they greatly deviate from the typical style. Sure that may make me a purist but heh, it's the way I see it in the same way that I never have and never will see Avatar as anime.

But I agree, having select titles up will blur the lines and may well just cause more problems down the line.

Indeed. While my argument wasn't based on the style-country distinction, I second cassiesheepgirl's point:

Style is not really what defines anime, although it immediately makes it recognisable in a lot of cases. However, there are plenty of shows that people wouldn't even know was anime unless someone told them. So it has to be the country of origin, and particularly, the studio/production company behind the show.

If The Last Unicorn will never make it onto your database, then I'll be damned if Robotech gets to stay.

well, we probably will end up including manwha, we just arent at the moment due to time/resources.

country of origin isnt always black and white either - lots of titles we have up have japanese staff but might have been produced in another country.

an⋅i⋅me

–noun
a Japanese style of motion-picture animation, characterized by highly stylized, colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sexuality.

Origin:
1985–90; < Japn, borrowing of E animation


anime. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved March 11, 2009, from Dictionary.com website: anime definition | Dictionary.com

I'm gonna be really blunt here: Any show made outside of Japan isn't anime and therefor should not be included in the database as that just wrecks the entire thing.

There are a bunch of shows made in other countries, US included that are based of anime style but are still not anime. Avatar:The Last Airbender is the most notable for me because I've seen a good chunk of it and while yes, the art style is modled after that of anime, it's still an american cartoon. Wether or not there are artists of Japanese decent working on it really shouldn't matter either, I'm pretty sure alota old disney movies around the time of snow white, beauty and the beast, cinderella ect. were done at least partially by Japanese artists, but by no means are they concidered anime. If the artist on a cartoon was from Italy, does that make it an Italian cartoon?

Sorry but IMHO this being an anime site,(correct me if I'm wrong) based around anime as its core and purpose and called anime-planet.com I think you should keep it to strictly shows considered anime and comics considered manga (sorry if I come off as angered, condemning or flaming, I'm really not, I just feel very strongly about this particular topic because lack of purists like myself, VivisQueen, and cassiesheepgirl on one of my previous favorite anime sites tore it to shambles) only... (couldn't resist xD)

Edit: Also, whoever or whatever wrote that above definition obviously doesn't know much about anime. I personally can name bunches of titles without the last 3 (ex. Bottle Fairy, D.N.Angel, Maple Story, Azumangai Daioh, Lucky Star,Hikaru no Go, Prince of Tennis ect.), I can name a fair amount that aren't colorful at all, or very little (ex. Death Note, Ergo Proxy, Basilisk, Devil May Cry, ect). So that definition is proved incorrect right there, with no need to further tear it apart.

VivisQueen said:

I'm a purist. Even if they are closely linked, I'd stick with completely leaving US-stuff out. You otherwise start walking that very blurry line. Before you know it, people will be going 'Yeah, you have THAT on the database? So why not THIS?' And since you'll find it difficult to come up with good arguments, you'll be screwed.

For example, why put up Korean anime but not manhwa? You know what I mean? If it isn't by a Japanese studio, it ain't anime. Even if Disney randomly decided to remake Spirited Away with a similar style and everything, keep it out. And that's my view.

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I also agree with what vivi is saying here.

With situations like robotech & voltron, I saw to include them, but include them as alt titles for the original series.
The reason for this is because they ARE anime, they're merely the american translations of existing anime series. It's just like gatchaman being translated & released as "battle of the planets" and "g-force" (speaking of which, g-force needs to be added as an alt title for gatchaman). They are not american created series which were inspired by anime (like avatar or the teen titans), they are the american translations of true anime series.

I opt for a more complete database. Yes, Robotech is the US adaptation of SDF, but it happens to differ from the SDF storyline quite a bit. It is my standpoint that since SDF and Robotech were published separately (even though the are adaptations of the same storyline), they should be considered as two different works, and should thus be included in the AP database via two separate entries.

I believe that anything that stands as a separate work, regardless of its similarity to any other work or country of origin, should have its own entry in the Anime Planet database. Anime is defined by its Japanese style, not the country of origin.

Almost forgot... So in the context of the Robotech argument, I would vote for separate entries, but a synopsis that helps flush out the relationship between the different titles. I don't think aliasing them quite cuts it, as certain people would like to know the differences between each.

Click to expand...

This.

Honestly people, some edits and a English dub were used to change the series. It doesn't somehow miraculously change it into an American cartoon because Harmony Gold mangled the plots and characters for its own use.

And the idea of leaving Robotech out is ludicrous. It's an extremely significant title in the progress of anime in the west. It's also a completely separate title from Macross, Mospeada and Southern Cross. If you lump them together you're essentially glossing over that.

You could argue that say, the Shadow Chronicles OVA shouldn't be in there, but given that it's related to Robotech/anime it's kind of silly. As is all this talk about country of origin. Guess where all the animation for Robotech originated from? Starts with a "J" and ends with an "n".

Also, whoever or whatever wrote that above definition obviously doesn't know much about anime. I personally can name bunches of titles without the last 3 (ex. Bottle Fairy, D.N.Angel, Maple Story, Azumangai Daioh, Lucky Star,Hikaru no Go, Prince of Tennis ect.), I can name a fair amount that aren't colorful at all, or very little (ex. Death Note, Ergo Proxy, Basilisk, Devil May Cry, ect). So that definition is proved incorrect right there, with no need to further tear it apart.

Click to expand...

The only part of that definition that is questionable is the bit about futuristic settings. Otherwise it's a perfectly acceptable definition.

teferi said:

Honestly people, some edits and a English dub were used to change the series. It doesn't somehow miraculously change it into an American cartoon because Harmony Gold mangled the plots and characters for its own use.

Click to expand...

Ah, but there's the rub.

What is Robotech?

In short, Robotech is an adaption of a Japanese cartoon. Like how Tetsujin-28 became Gigantor (GIGANTOR THE SPACE AGE ROBOT!) Tetsuwan Atom became Astro Boy, Space Battleship Yamato became Star Blazers, and MachGoGoGo became Speed Racer. All of these shows and probably more involved a rather liberal approach to adapting the source material, though 'adapting the source material' makes it sound like they're refining some pretentious manuscript rather than slapping waspish names on these Japanese toon creations.

Anyway, all the above have their English names noted in the database rather than be listed as seperate entities, which I think is as it should be. In many cases the English name as the principle instead of the Japanese which I'd also find fair as this is an English language website. The big thing that differs Robotech from its peers is it's made out of a number of seperate Japanese cartoons rather than just one, which accordingly warrants its name's mention on all of those cartoons.

Basically, as kenaniah has pointed out, the only rationale available to include Robotech as a seperate entry would require a redefinition of the word 'anime'. As the site is presently using it it's simply not compatible.

And the idea of leaving Robotech out is ludicrous. It's an extremely significant title in the progress of anime in the west.

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Transformers was a pretty significant title too, perhaps more so.

^^What valondar said.



Transformers was a significant title, but the original series was not, in way way shape or form, anime. It was purely american. In fact, the whole mythos of the transformers was an american invention. While the toys existed in japan first, it was hasbro that created what we know of as the transformers. Many later transformers series were anime, but the original was not.

kenaniah said:

an⋅i⋅me

–noun
a Japanese style of motion-picture animation, characterized by highly stylized, colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sexuality.

Origin:
1985–90; < Japn, borrowing of E animation


anime. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved March 11, 2009, from Dictionary.com website: anime definition | Dictionary.com

Click to expand...

Characterised by futuristic settings, colourful art, violence and sexuality, eh? Well fuck me. Monster must be a Pixar production then. Honestly, I'd be highly surprised if sothis is using that definition for her database. Lol.