what would you think about compiling a known bootlegger list

[sothis]

a discussion on anipike arose about how it would be nice to have a resource where people could see all the known bootlegger sites out there, to avoid being ripped off. i think this would be a valuable resource, and thought maybe it could be hosted here on the site. not sure if there could be a button link to it, but it could be a prominent text link.

anyone have anything against this idea? i notice the guy on the digital pirate page doesnt like naming these places because it might bring them business, which is true, but at the same time, i see SO MANY threads in various places asking if <so and so> is a bootleg site, or people recommending places that are obviously bootleg sites and they dont know it, because they don't know the warning signs, etc. so i think it would be useful, and a good way to bring traffic to the site too (since you could post the link in these places)

[Prisoner1138]

i haven't seen anyone here ask whether or not a site sold bootlegs, so it'd probably end up doing more harm(advertising sites to buy bootlegs from) than good(telling users who don't seem to be asking not to buy from them)

[sothis]

not here, but go to anipike, for example, and read the general anime forum. that's a site that has WAY more traffic than this one. also animesuki, or other sites. i think the reason why you don't see it here as much, is because most people who post here aren't total newbies, or have common sense ;). there are a lot of new anime fans and/or people who don't know much that this would be very helpful for, just maybe not specific anime planet members. still, i think it would be a valuable resource for the community.

i have been speaking with freakzilla via pm right now and since he cant respond since hes at work, i thought id bring up some of the things we just mentioned that has strengthened my idea.

first, although it might get traffic to those people who want bootlegs, odds are if they want them, they can easily find them anyways via ebay, half.com, etc. on the other hand, it would be helping out MANY people who want to not be ripped off, which is a good thing.

one of freakzilla's ideas:

might even have a scumfactor rating....... i.e. those businesses which try and hide the fact that what they are selling are bootlegs would be rated higher than those who make it pretty clear that's what they are selling

i think this is a fantastic idea. some sites are very dubious, maybe not listing normal bootleg qualities, showing real packaging, etc. i could add a rating feature (users probably coudlnt vote on this, but it might show up as a star rating)

freakzilla also mentioned listing specific ebay sellers who have been doing this for years who aren't shut down yet. i agree

[sothis]

another idea from freak that i like: people being able to post comments or experiences they've had with a store.

this would be heavily moderated, probably would have to fill out a comment form and then physically posted by me. but i think its a good idea

[sothis]

also, assuming i end up doing this, please respond if you know of known legit or bootleg sites.

[-=Masakari=-]

I think a FAQ that teaches people what bootlegs ARE and how to recognize them would be better. It would serve the purposes of informing people of the dangers of being ripped off by bootlegs, instruct them on how to recognize and avoid buying bootlegs when they're looking for actual professional DVDs and also not advertise any particular bootlegging site. In general, I've found the simplest ways of recognizing bootlegs (in terms of HK DVDs at least) to be:

* They're listed as Region 0.

* They have English and Chinese subs, but no English dub. ALL anime DVDs that I've ever come across that have Chinese subs are bootlegs.

* They contain many more episodes per DVD than professional releases; usually 8 or more.

* They're advertised as the 'International Release' or 'Official Asian Release.' Both of those are commonly used by bootleggers who try to convince potential buyers that they're getting something professional.

* The cases have the 'stamp' of one of the major bootlegging companies. Freak knows more about this than I do but the most common ones I've seen is a green capital 'M' or a red capital 'A.'

Also note that HK DVDs will often have very attractive and professional-looking cover designs, in contrast to the usually sub-par job done with the actual anime. I joke with Freak that my HK DVD box of Neo Ranga looks better than my R1 box of it... So 'it looks professional' is really not a way to determine whether something is a bootleg or not.

Of course things like bootlegs of fansubs, which usually just consist of .avi files burned onto a CD or DVD, are much easier to recognize.

[splattermark]

I can't help much since I never really buy DVDs (not because I'm a bastard but because the amount of series I actually like I can count on my right hand), but I think this is a good idea. Gabe used to buy anime DVDs online for at prices that made them look legit, only to end up with a desynched dub subtitled in French or something, and I'm sure he's not the only one it's happened to.

[sothis]

this already exists via the digital pirate faq ^_^ (linked from the links page)... i wouldn't list the links to these sites, just the names... there are a lot of people who could read the digital pirate faq, but still want specific names of who to avoid. for example, the deception feature would be helpful because some sites REALLY SEEM like they are legit.

legit sites, however, would be linked. these would be on two seperate pages.

i really do see this as a great investment ^_^

also, i'd probably find a small team of people to investigate each link which is "submitted", perhaps email personally asking if these things have the trademark features (if they arent listed), and then could list it accordingly.

[sothis]

at freakzilla's request, im going to post our convo since he cant respond now and is worried he will forget what he wants to say

sothis: http://www.anime-planet.com/phpBB2/v...?p=68111#68111 tell me what you think of this idea

Zadillo: i love it....:) I think you know my viewpoint on bootleggers....:)

sothis: well but about the idea that it might be helping out these business

Zadillo: although i do understand the reservations i guess that some people have, as for people who don't care if they are buying from bootleggers, i guess it does provide a sort of all-in one catalogue

sothis: yea, its a toss up.. but id tend to think it would be really valuable for those who want to be against it

sothis: i guess i figure that if people are going to do it, theyll do it.. but for people that DONT want to, it can be preventative

Zadillo: it's a tricky issue, but frankly...... if someone already knows they want bootlegs, they certainly don't need to go out of their way to find them (not to mention eBay, bootlegger central). and those who are for it don't need a guide to find them

Zadillo: might even have a scumfactor rating....... i.e. those businesses which try and hide the fact that what they are selling are bootlegs would be rated higher than those who make it pretty clear that's what they are selling

Zadillo: just cause there is a difference........ there are some companies and eBay sellers which will list pictures of commercial packaging, not give any hints that what they are selling is a bootleg, etc.

sothis: yea, though those go away really quick

Zadillo: you'd be surprised....:)

Zadillo: there are eBay sellers who have been selling bootlegs for years without getting shut down. usually unless they start selling bootlegs that a specific company is monitoring and asks them to be shut down (i.e. AnimEigo is known for being very active against anyone trying to sell bootlegs of shows they have a license to, like Macross and KOR)..... they seem to be able to operate pretty easily

sothis: hmm interesting, then that would be good to post also

sothis: thats a good thought, actually

Zadillo: cause actually those are my biggest objections when it comes to bootleggers. i can sort of deal with those who just outright admit that what they are selling is bootlegs. but i really dislike those guys that use all sorts of shady techniques to trick honest people into buying their crap.

sothis: yea, what i might do is ask people to email people from these bootleg sites that dont SEEM like bootlegs, and ask if they have chinese subs, etc

sothis: if they do, they are being devious

Zadillo: i know this is one of those issues that divides a lot of people...... i know there are a lot of people who like bootlegs because they feel commercial releases are too expensive, etc.

sothis: well in general, im thinking this is a really good idea after talking to you

sothis: i would probably put them in a database so its easy to catalogue

Zadillo: yeah, i figure as long as it's clear that it's just a resource to help people who really want to avoid buying bootlegs.

Zadillo: and then if someone wants to start getting into a philosophical debate about buying bootlegs, you just say "obviously, this site would serve no purpose for you"

Zadillo: i wonder if it might not hurt to provide a companion database perhaps with links to stores that ARE legitimate (i.e. stores which have stated policies to not carry bootlegs, that kind of thing)

sothis: very good idea

Zadillo: just cause assuming someone is at that database to find out if a place they are looking at is selling bootlegs, the natural follow-up question from them would probably be "ok, so what places DO sell legit releases?"

Zadillo: there's one other possibility, but this would put things in a bit more of a gray area......... similar to how people can "review" a series in the Anime Recommendations database, perhaps people could "review" a specific store in this database if they had an experience with them.

but that probably isn't such a hot idea, as you might end up with people using it to praise bootleg stores where they got a good price or something

sothis: something like "known list of bootleg and legit sites"

sothis: well perhaps with reviews, they would need to be emailed and physically posted

sothis: so it would really be moderated

Zadillo: yeah, could be.

the area where i see it as a benefit would be just along the lines of providing a place to post user comments on particular stores (i.e. people who had been tricked or fooled by them, or had some bad experience)

sothis: i definitely agree

Zadillo: sort of like how you can go to the Better Business Bureau and see the complaints people had filed about a particular business

Zadillo: one other possible idea, perhaps to alleviate fears about basically being a catalogue of bootleg sites.

perhaps it could list the store's name, but not provide a direct URL. So it would be enough if someone already knew the place they were checking on, but if someone wanted to try and use it to FIND bootleg sites, they'd at least have to go out of their way to guess their URL or search for it based on their name

Zadillo: yeah, definitely

sothis: i had thought of that, actually

sothis: links for normal sites, but not bootlegs

Zadillo: i guess the other thing if it lists both legit and bootleg sites, it needs to be REALLY clear which is which. if there was any room for confusion, it could really piss off the companies (i.e. if someone said "hrmm, I found a link to your site on this list of bootleg sites"). just something to be careful about.

Zadillo: best thing obviously is just to keep them split....... here's the list of bootleg sites, and here's the list of sites that do not stock bootlegs

sothis: yea, definitely, there would be a big title and two seperate pages

Zadillo: i think the general concern ("this helps people find bootleggers") can definitely be alievated. first, by not providing their full URL, secondly by providing links to legit alternatives and third, just the reality that bootlegs are so prevalent and so insiduous that there is much more purpose in creating something to help people identify which are and aren't bootleggers, rather than just trying to not mention them at all and hope that ignoring them solves the problem

sothis: yea and i'd like to the digital pirate faq

Zadillo: yeah

Zadillo: i think that's the ultimate defense though....... it's not like these bootleggers are hard to find anyway, especially on major sites like eBay and amazon.com's Zstores..... so there's much more purpose in putting it out there and calling the bootleggers out.

where this really helps is people who don't want to buy bootlegs, but fall prey to those people who stock bootlegs but try and pass them off as legit

Zadillo: the biggest thing I run into is frankly people who buy bootlegs, but were told by the store that sold them to them that they were "imports"..... which is half-true, but they give them all sorts of BS to make them think that they are legitimate

sothis: yea, this is why people would need to research and ask questions

sothis: probably id have a comment form you could fill out with a site you think is bootleg, then id try to find a group of investigators i could give the link to, and report back with severity of deception, etc

Zadillo: i was just talking to someone on another forum recently and they were talking about what a big Kenshin fan, and they were explaining how they were planning on buying the import Kenshin set with the OVA's and TV series together.

when i explained to him that it was most likely a bootleg, he was really surprised because he was sure it was legit.

Zadillo: yeah..... i figure there are two or three different camps of people. those who buy bootlegs because they just don't know that's what they are.... people who buy bootlegs because they are convinced they are OK for one reason or another (i.e. they believe they are legal in the country they were made in)..... and people who buy bootlegs and know they are bootlegs but don't care because they don't want to spend the money on the real thing

Zadillo: yeah...... the deception part is probably kind of hard, cause frankly almost everyone engages in it to some degree or another. i mean, no-one comes out and says "this is an illegal bootleg". and the nature of bootlegs makes it so they don't have to go out of their way to deceive people that much..... all you have to do is show a picture of the packaging (which often looks legit.. a lot of people think bootlegs have to have really ugly xeroxed packaging or something) and say it has English subs and/or dubs (I've run into a lot of people who feel that anything with English subs on it must be legit)

Zadillo: some bootlegs are especially tough though....... like the Cowboy Bebop bootleg that is floating around, that has its packaging art ripped to look practically identical to the legit Bandai R1 boxset, and that has the English audio track on it. so even if the seller doesn't go out of their way to clarify that it is not the Bandai R1 release, it does an even more effective job. heck, i've almost been fooled by that one.

sothis: yea, indeed

Zadillo: btw, one other "feature" of this site, if you'd like to do it.......... and i'd be glad to help respond to requests, etc.

would be to have a form that people could fill out called "Is this a bootleg?"

not so much for reporting bootlegs, but just where people could send a product link or an auction link or whatever and just ask if it's a bootleg or not, and get a personal response letting them know if it's safe or not

Zadillo: especially useful in cases where maybe there's a red flag (i.e. a really low price), but it might still be legit.

for example, RightStuf.com selling that 8 DVD collection of Gasaraki for $29.99. it's a legit release, but the price almost makes it seem like it might be a bootleg or something (since it's common for complete TV series to sell for only $30 compared to $80-100 for a legit boxset of a complete series)

sothis: a very good idea

sothis: id just need support, but if you could offer it, thats good

Zadillo: yup, I would be VERY enthusiastic about responding to all requests that came through that

Zadillo: there's very little in the world of anime that i take more seriously than that, and i'd love to do it

Zadillo: bootlegbusters...:)

[Mrinx]

I dunno... I don't think it's wise because you don't need to give anyone a good reason to shut you down.