Discussion/Debate -Downloading anime-

[ParaParaJMo]

OK, what are people's positions here on downloading anime?

Is it wrong? Is it right? Are we lazy? Or Stupid?

Personally, I can see both sides.

I only download anime I can't get in the U.S. yet, if I like it, then eventually I hope to buy it when it comes out. Like I did with Hajime no Ippo/Fighting Spirit and Gundam series I can currently get legimately, etc.

But most animes I tend to watch will probably never make it to America, like Ashita no Joe or won't appeal to U.S. audiences like Ringu ni Kakero.

What do Japanese companies have to lose if a non-Japanese person/resident such as myself downloads their shows? You know, if I were in Japan downloading it, it would be another thing because I would have gotten the DVDs. I have bought anime DVDs in Japan.

Downloading licensing titles if avaliable locally in your country is another issue and I don't support that. You can legally get it and it costs the licensing company money. But on the other hand, I do believe in "try before you buy."

Fansubbing/downloading anime actually helps. The company that got Azumanga Daioh wasn't sure about it and the same with Haruhi Suzumiya. When they heard the news on the internet, it really helped them more confident about their decisions to license it.

[eQko_x]

I see how its somewhat bad for the producers of the anime profit wise but downloading is probably the best type of advertising they could ever ask for. especially thanks to fansubbers. Im sure it help boost their sales when anime's like bleach and naruto first came to the states in their english dub version since not everyone enjoys subs as much as i do. but as a person who download almost constantly; I wouldnt mind buying more anime's or manga but an entire series of manga would cost over $100 and my most recent purchase was FLCL and it cost $30 per volume and there is 2 episodes for volume and with 3 volumes. I just paid 90 plus dollars for a 6 episode series. Its a little discouraging sometimes. So buying all the anime I would wish to have watched is more than out of the question especially for a college student.

[Kastrophee]

I despise downloading, but then I am not going to watch something in Japanese till I learn Japanese so I do download fansubs (That are not liscensed or US screwed up their release by cutting it)....

[Brank]

The problem lies with the cost of each anime. The DVD is often too expensive and if you can't get it in North America than downloading is the only solution. I discourage the fact that some people download animes and after make copies and give them to others because that is strongly illegal. On the other hand, if you download it and just want to see what it looks like before going to put a massive amount of money in it, it's a good way of doing things.

I see the download version more as a demo and when you can buy it, it's like having the real stuff.

[Aydan]

Spin.
In public relations, spin is a sometimes pejorative term signifying a heavily biased portrayal in one's own favor of an event or situation.

If a company can gain an advantage from fan subs to explain away disappointing sales, they will, even if this paints fansubs in a bad light.
If a company can gain an advantage from fan subs, by using information about them for market research, they will, even if this paints fansubs in a positive light.

Japanese get the money they put into devolving/producing of a anime series back through selling commercial time and merchandise. The revenue generated from DVD sales used for this purpose is negligible compared to the other ways. However, once the cost of the devolving/production has been returned, the sale of DVD's turn into pure profit as the costs of making copies becomes negligible.

Companies that license anime have a harder time to get back the original investment before they can start making pure profit. Licensing anime is very risky business, with potential for huge payoff. Very simplistic example: series ZZZ is licensed for $1.000.000,- and made ready for $500.000,- and sold as 6 DVD's each $25,- ($150,- for the whole thing). The goal is to sell 10.000 complete shows at this price only to get back the initial investment. Once that is done, the company can drop the price for the whole series by 90% ($15,-) and still turn a profit or just keep selling them at the original price. The point of pure profit has come. The cost of making the DVD's, distribution and promotion becomes negligible at this point. Getting the ROI is always the big problem, most anime companies gamble and miss.

The concepts of wrong or right is irrelevant when it comes to law. The law is not always right. It was once legal to own slaves, for a long time, yet it was overturned because people realized that that law was wrong. That being said the concept of what is wrong or right is very subjective and personal.

Is it legal to download rips of the DVD version of an anime that is licensed and which version is made for your country? No.
Is it legal to download fansubs when the anime is not licensed in your country? Yes
Is it legal to download fansubs when the anime is licensed in your country? Debatable.
A DVD has somewhat of a licensing agreement on it, were as a recording of a tv show does not. Yet they contain the same information product. A no here would cause the recording of any tv program to be illegal. Because if you are able to record something from your tv, the program needs to air at your location and thus be licensed to do so. But this is in my gray box.

But it is always about spin and what advantage a company can gain from certain situations and certain information. Not the mention the huge conflicts of interest within companies owed by the same corporations. Sony for example, owns MGM/Columbia Pictures/TriStar Pictures/Animax and makes media recorders. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

ps:
The term demo/try before you buy, doesn't apply to fansubs, unless you buy DVD's for the dubs. As soon as an information product is viewed/experienced it's already consumed.

[VivisQueen]

What Aydan said.

There are two considerations to downloading - one is the fact that I wish to be up to date with my anime viewing, and waiting two years before something comes out on DVD is rubbish. The market here is VERY slow. Also, the initial cost for me is out of the question.

But seriously, once I'm earning a wage, I will dedicated myself to replacing most of my collection with proper DVDs because I do want to reward the creators with profit. Luckily, I only download completely stuff I like. Shit I've seen in its entirety was actually bought on DVD for a ridiculous price - this was in the day when that was all the access I had to anime.

Anyway, there is no doubt that the creators of Death Note, Code Geass, Cardcaptor Sakura, Gundam Seed etc etc etc deserve my money.

[AngryJellyfish]

As a resident in a country that gets less licensed anime than the USA, I'm constantly having to download series. But when a series I've downloaded does come out here, I try to buy it ASAP. Even if the DVD subs are never as good as the fansubs :p . I have no problems with downloading unlicensed fansubs, or watching the first episode of a series before buying it.

What annoys me is the fact that most good fansub groups are from the USA, so as soon as a series becomes licensed there I can no longer download it on most sites, even though there's usually a huge wait afterwards for it to be licensed here, if it ever is. So I have to use the more dodgy sites which also have UK licensed series and DVD rips.

[Asgorath]

Originally Posted by Aydan

Is it legal to download rips of the DVD version of an anime that is licensed and which version is made for your country? No.

Actually you aren't upto date on your own countries laws. Downloading for personal use of both audio and video content is legal in the Netherlands. Uploading isn't. Downloading and uploading of software is illegal in both cases. You, just like everybody else also pay for this, through the extra money we have to pay on all blank recording devices.


As for the bigger question if it's all good or bad. I don't really think anybody can argue against the fact that things only released in Japan that get fan subbed don't hurt anybody when it comes to downloading.

In terms of DVD's I must admit I also don't see that much harm for various reasons. Being Dutch and as such in the European region most anime DVD's actually aren't released for this region at all, even when licensed for "the west" they often only get released for the US continent. Since I don't have a region free DVD player any more I can't even watch a lot of DVD's I bought straight of of the US. Not to mention I've often been forced to pay hefty import "fines" for doing this. So the industry doesn't want me to watch something due to their retarded region scheme AND the government is taxing me on importing something not even available in Europe... That is one reason I feel little regret when I do download something licensed to the US.

Next to this anything that has been produced for TV in my view is okay to download anyway. The DVD profits are just an extra in my view. If I watch it on a set time when tv stations think I should watch it's "free" (aside from the taxes that cover the national tv stations ofc.) but if I want to view it at a different time I need to pay? Their income came from tv licensing/commercials and prob. for a large part from merchandise. The irony is that due to having a job and most anime being aired at "kids times" I need to pay because I actually do work for a living? If I was unemployed and lazy then it would be free? Given it's not originally produced for making an income through direct sales and it's something for being aired on TV... TV is just getting an outdated concept, and outdated idea that somebody else decides for you when you can watch what.

Another thing that bugs me about buying is related to this. There often is no real re-watch value. That's why these things work well on TV, you watch them once and then that's it. It's fleeting entertainment. Unlike music which you might reuse over and over. The prices for fleeting entertainment like this are really high. I'm actually quite amazed at the success of DVD's overall (despite owning many myself), it's like it's primary use is to tie into the collectors urge most people have. To simply "own stuff" with no real new continuing value any more. Collecting postage stamps or marbles is a lot cheaper then. It's more a sign of the times we are wasting huge amounts of money on collecting shit loads of "junk" we won't ever use (note; the anime isn't junk.. but collecting endless amounts of silver disks in plastic containers just so you have them on your shelve is a bit pointless - yet I admit to being guilty to it as well :P).

Last thing that bothers me sometimes is how everything seems to revolve to an extreme around consuming. Believe me I fully agree with the fact that those who make such shows should be able to live of it, get enough money to make more. In short be rewarded for their efforts. And seeing how well these businesses flourish I think we can be save to say they are. What bothers me is that in recent years consumers are more and more turned into criminals. If you don't consume, don't pay for every single thing you are a criminal. The flexibility, the normality of use seems to have gone. It's become like ones existence is mainly there to consume and consume more. No more just living and enjoying life even if it is a little outside of the rules set by major cooperation's. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anti globalist, I'm not an anarchist. Nothing of the sorts. I think rules, laws, boundries they all are important. But it seems like we've gone over to some sort of extreme where 11 year old kids are hunted down like criminals by the entertainment industry, where those left behind after the death of a loved one are before the funal is set get a notice they are being sued for "copywrite violations" of the person they just lost. It's just all going a bit too far. There is a list of great new inventions that actually have been outlawed and are forbidden due to copy write or financial worries (like a VCR that could not record commercials - no it was outlawed as even when you taped something the tv stations wanted the commercials in there - despite the fact 99% of people would ofc. fast forward them).

If there never was an intent to buy then your not steeling, your not even guilty of a "loss of potential income" (which is what we are generally talking about). It cost nobody nothing. There are more pressing matters in the world.

Having said all that I do enjoy a bit of collecting myself so yes I do own a lot of DVD's. And no I don't agree with people who just copy everything that they otherwise would have bought. There just isn't any balance anymore.

[Tetra]

I download anime, even if it is licenced. Yes I will buy the anime that I end up saving when I can afford it, but I will still save the fansubs. Many fansub groups have way better translation quality than professional translators. And I do not watch dubs.
Actually the only reason I have for buying anime is to give back to the creators and the companies that are willing to open up the world of anime for other people. I do not watch bought anime since, as I said, the translations mostly suck.

[Brank]

I totally agree with Tetra that the subs are way better than the dubs. The audio is way more good.