What is Anime

[Ketsuron]

Since people seem to be confused about the term anime (as seen in the Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles, Afro Samurai and Avatar: The Last Airbender threads) i thought to re-sum up my take on this matter.

Before answering if something is "anime" it should first be cleared up what is meant by the term anime (we might have defined it somewhere in the past though).

The Online Etymology Dictionary defines anime as the following:

anime
c.1985, Japanese for "animation," a term that seems to have arisen in the 1970s, apparently based on the Eng. word. Manga (q.v.) is Japanese for "comic book, graphic novel," but anime largely are based on manga and until 1970s, anime were known as manga eiga or "TV manga." The two terms are somewhat confused in Eng.

So next what else is "anime"?
From western point of view "anime" is something which

• originated from japan (while we western probably don't care if one came from south korea)
• is a specific style which we regard as "anime style"

[Asgorath]

A lot of anime was actually in the old days made for the US market on request of the US market. A lot of it was (and is) animation made in Japan based on the request of the US market. With things like the animated version of Heidi being one of it's prime examples.

Before Robotech came into play you also already before had anime that was either intended for the US market, or anime meant for the Japanese market that was being cut-up and redesigned to better fit the US market. Robotech is being credited as possibly the first of these attempts where they kept the complete Japanese spirit alive, without making it too western.

Other then that anime it's self isn't even that old. The cartoon that started it all (or is at least seen as such) would be Astroboy. And one of the main things with the animation style is how much it was influenced by western animation (already in the manga it was based on - which came from... western influence). It's different from western animation, but it tried to some effect to copy it at that time. One of the reasons still why Japanese people seem to continue to make anime with people who look western. Anime was at it's very start a fusion between western and japanese styles.

Check something like: http://discover-indo.tierranet.com/japanart0050.htm

What happens if Disney next issues a request to make an anime for a western audience directly from Ghibli? Will that not be considered anime either?

[v16]

What happens if Disney next issues a request to make an anime for a western audience directly from Ghibli? Will that not be considered anime either?

AFAIK a number of completely American animated shows is being drawn in Japan already. Cheaper labor plus more streamlined industry.

[Asgorath]

Originally Posted by v16

AFAIK a number of completely American animated shows is being drawn in Japan already. Cheaper labor plus more streamlined industry.

(my original post was in another topic I think unless I'm gone a bit odd? - as such it was directed at a comment about robotech not being allowed because it was issued out of the US).

Anyhoo, my entire point was that the US has a long standing tradition of issuing Japanese animation. There of course is a difference from what you said about cheap labor, or asking a studio to develop an anime for the western market (as what I was aiming for in my example).

[Cythraul]

Originally Posted by Asgorath

A lot of it was (and is) animation made in Japan based on the request of the US market. With things like the animated version of Heidi being one of it's prime examples.

If this were true, why wasn't it even released in the US? There were a few series a bit later that were produced for European companies but Heidi wasn't. I don't know of any anime series from the seventies produced for the US market. (There might have been some: that isn't something I've ever been interested in/bothered to look up. Do name one though, I always like to learn more anime trivia.)

Originally Posted by Asgorath

Other then that anime it's self isn't even that old. The cartoon that started it all (or is at least seen as such) would be Astroboy.

Anime is older than Disney. That said, it didn't "catch on" until the late fifties/early sixties.

[Ketsuron]

@Asgorath: I thought your post were better suited in this new formed thread. As you might see, your post subject haven't been altered at all.

[Asgorath]

Originally Posted by Cythraul

If this were true, why wasn't it even released in the US? There were a few series a bit later that were produced for European companies but Heidi wasn't. I don't know of any anime series from the seventies produced for the US market. (There might have been some: that isn't something I've ever been interested in/bothered to look up. Do name one though, I always like to learn more anime trivia.)

I'll admit I presumed about the US, but Heidi was the anime shown in Europe (I've seen it as a kid both on Dutch, Belgian and German tv) for sure. In general Europe follows the US, so I assumed it came from the US. Me Bad.. just European market that was all over it. Just as a few other kids shows... I don't recall it's name any more but that god aw full show which had the greek Odessy story set in space... Ulysses 31 I believe. Also stuff like Marine Boy, Star Blazers, Battle of the Planets, Tom Sawyer. I don't know who all did what. I do know Ulysses 31 and The Mysterious Cities of Gold where French-Japanese Collaborations. Apparently Hanna-Barbera had stuff commissioned but I dunno what exactly.

Anime is older than Disney. That said, it didn't "catch on" until the late fifties/early sixties.

I never said Disney caused anime as far as I can recall. Apologies if I gave you that impression. As I understand it (and this is before my time as well) the first anime is Astroboy and astroboy was based on pretty much the first real manga. Which in turn was a combination of Japanese original art being influenced by US comic books. I wasn't around when the US beat Japan however and brought their influence to Japan so I also have to rely on information found else where. But as I understand it manga basically where what happened when Japanese people tried to make comic books for the first time based on US comic books (nothing to do with Disney). And one of the things you can still find this back in is that most anime characters seem to be white and not Japanese.

Astroboy became one of the first (or as I understand it the first) attempts to turn one of those comic books into animation. Because manga is at it's Japanese making US type comic's originally Astroboy as an anime also is very western in that sense. It also really resembles the story of Pinocchio, and it's style of dawning is more "western based" then current day material. Some more recent anime still has this really old school style of dawning as well (like Metropolis). Mainly because as I understand it, it is based on an older Manga (but no clue.. never read it).

Anime's like Astro Boy, Speed Racer and Kimba the White Lion where available in the US as early as the 1960ties I believe. They where quite cut up however for the western audience. What my original post was responding to before being moved was that Robotech had no place here and should not be called an anime. While I doubt many would argue that Astro Boy, Speed Racer, etc. should also not be called anime. It's interesting somebody here had a problem with Robotech given:
"Robotech was frequently among the top-ten animé lists of American anime magazines such as Anime Insider, Animerica, Newtype USA, and others."
Wikipedia lists it as:
"Robotech was one of the first anime released in the United States that largely managed to preserve the complexity and drama of its original Japanese source material."
The Shadow Chronically trailers where also first shown at Anime sections or conventions as I understand it.

That was the main thing I was replying too and trying to explain Anime is something that isn't 100% Japanese as such. A lot of younger people seem to think it's just the recent anime that always existed and as soon as some other country becomes involved it ain't anime any more. Without the US involvement both manga and anime as I understand it would simply not exist even.

Due to the fact that Robotech combined 3 shows into 1 new storyline it also becomes very hard to class it under it's original 3 shows now. Since the storyline has been altered, but it's spirit has always been kept alive. The only one I will admit has a stronger western influence is later comer, the shadow chronicles. But since it is a part of the rest of the series, it's animation style is that associated with anime and because simply of the growing influence of tv being made for wider audiences... it's still part of the family tree. More so imho then Pokémon (still it's very simply; it's Japanese animation as such anime imho :p) :p

[Kastrophee]

Deju vu.

I predict that Cythraul will start bringing Sazae-san (Which I still don't think is anime, but I don't want to start that over again) and ect into the converstation and this will never get solved, but do carry on....

[Cythraul]

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1...7300042qn0.jpg

^Animation sequence from an anime from 1907. Not much is known about that one. The first confirmed commercial anime was released in 1917 (Imokawa mukuzou genkanban no maki).

Even in the link you posted, they only claim (falsely) that Astro Boy was the first TV anime. That is, they say nothing about the movies and shit before it. We do list a few of those even right here in the anirec (http://www.anime-planet.com/anirec/1132.html & http://www.anime-planet.com/anirec/1316.html).

And if there was some confusion about my stance on the matter: if it's produced in Japan, it's anime. Amateur productions and other non-conventional animation/anime judged on a case-by-case basis.

@Kastrophee: Why would I bring up Sazae-san when it's newer than Astro Boy? And did you just post only to say you don't wish to participate in this thread? o.O Anyway, since you're here: did you read that second to last paragraph in Asgorath's previous post? The bit about "younger people" and anime?

[Kastrophee]

I am didn't mean sazae-san, wrong name sorry, I meant another one, but that name is evading me... I read all of Agoraths's post, but I can re-read that part....but, I don't see what you are trying to say about it...