anime-planet rod and gun club

[r-18]

how could i not go with a moe ...ar???

[splattermark]

Sorry r-18 I come and go so between different forums I didn't see your PM until today :(

AR-15s are excellent guns that have set the standard for ergonomics and accuracy amongst semi-automatic rifles for the last five decades. They're lightweight, extremely modular and customizable, and can be chambered in anything that can fit through the magwell. Caliber choices include but are not necessarily limited to .22LR, 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, 10mm, .204 Ruger, 5.56x45, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, .300 Blackout, .300 Whisper, 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM, .502 Thunder Sabre, .50 Beowulf, and .338 Spectre. I'm sure there's more I've forgotten :(

Bushmaster isn't horrible but like most lower-tier manufacturers they're known for cutting corners in little ways that can make a big difference in the long run (commercial buffer tubes vs mil-spec, improperly staked gas keys, no parkerizing under the gas block, last I heard they still don't MP test action parts, etc.) I mean, a Bushmaster or DPMS isn't going to blow your face off but Stoner's design was meant to be built to a high milspec standard so commercial-quality guns have shorter maintenance interval times and a higher rate of malfunctions or mechanical failures.

For about the same price as a basic model commercial-quality AR bought from a gun store you can build a milspec gun, or for the price of an off-the-shelf milspec rifle you can build a super-pimp customized gun. I've built my four current ARs from the ground up and I selected every component individually instead of buying a rifle meant to have a general mass appeal at the highest profit margin so they're customized perfectly for me. I learned the hard way long ago not to settle for something less than what you actually want when you're already going to be spending several hundred dollars in the first place, as if you spend a little more money on quality parts they'll last much longer so it's an inconsequential increase in the long run. (This is of course within reason, don't buy into the hype surrounding every little gizmo that can attach to a rail. The best rifle setup isn't the one with the most crap attached to it, it's the one that can do the most with the least.)

I know you have a hardon for 6.8 but as I pointed out in that other thread the only thing it really offers over 5.56 in 75gr TAP or 77gr Mk262 is a slightly increased fragmentation range, inside or outside that narrow bracket there's not really much difference in wound profile. Ammo cost is another consideration because you can get 5.56 practice ammo for less than $0.18/round if you buy in bulk from Aimsurplus or whatever but the cheapest 6.8 I can find on gun-deals.com is $0.87/round. To put that difference into perspective the cost firing a single 30 round magazine of 6.8SPC would be over $26 while a magazine of 5.56 would cost only $5.40. The military decided spending all the extra money on SPC just to gain 60 extra yards fragmentation range wasn't worth it, and you don't even have to shoot suicide squads of heavily armed insurgents every day so it probably won't be worth it for you either.

If you really want an AR in a bigger, harder-hitting caliber go with 6.5 Grendel. Not only is brass-cased JHP or JSP ammo available from Wolf much cheaper than 6.8SPC FMJ but they've just announced a line of even cheaper steel-cased ball ammo with a bullet design based on the fast-yawing 7n6 round used in the AK-74. In fact at very long range thanks to it's high ballistic coefficient (which is a figure of ballistic effectiveness based on aerodynamic profile and cross-sectional density) it catches up to or even surpasses .308 in velocity and energy

[r-18]

i have not made any derision on either caliber or manufacture....i like ruger firearms in general but there is no way i could build my own from parts ...pistol caliber ar would be a good choice...because it would be used by both me and marcia who is not that good with weight or recoil...i have not seen a 10 mm upper but that might be the best choice for the close range that i am likely to use it at....but the basic m4 type in 5.56...might jus be the best and cheapest way to go....i have seen and like the lwrc piston guns even if there is little to be gained by a piston driven system...

[splattermark]

Originally Posted by r-18

i have not made any derision on either caliber or manufacture....i like ruger firearms in general but there is no way i could build my own from parts ...pistol caliber ar would be a good choice...because it would be used by both me and marcia who is not that good with weight or recoil...i have not seen a 10 mm upper but that might be the best choice for the close range that i am likely to use it at....but the basic m4 type in 5.56...might jus be the best and cheapest way to go....i have seen and like the lwrc piston guns even if there is little to be gained by a piston driven system...

The Ruger guns seem to be decent quality but from everything I've read they're just subcontracted parts with RUGER stamped on them, and for that little stamp you pay a premium. Ruger also uses heavy barrels, handguards, and piston in conjunction with a carbine stock so the couple I've played with in the store felt very poorly balanced. All the weight was in the front, which makes the rifle feel heavier than it really is and harder to handle.

AR-15s are very, very easy to assemble compared to some of the other builds I've done like FALs or M1s. Seriously, if you can tighten a nut or set a roll pin you can build an AR and I can fully assemble one in about 25 minutes while watching TV. The hardest part of kit-building a gun is usually setting the headspace, but unlike older designs an AR headspaces off the barrel extension rather than the relation between the chamber and the receiver, which means you can just drop it in and it's ready to go. I could even loan you all the tools you need (short of a table-mounted vise and torque wrench) if you promised to FedEx them back.

HOW TO BUILD AN AR-15:

AR15 Upper Reciever Build - YouTube <--Upper
AR15 Build Lower Receiver - YouTube <--Lower

You can also swap out multiple uppers between any lower so you can build a lower then use that as a .22, 9mm, 5.56, 6.5, etc

[r-18]

o i have tools and use them a lot ....it is more a matter of having seen some of the things that can happen if you mess up....money isn't a huge problem as al lthis will go down some time in the future when we sell 2 houses ....so i have even considered buying a land warfare resources research corp sbr ...

[splattermark]

Originally Posted by r-18

o i have tools and use them a lot ....it is more a matter of having seen some of the things that can happen if you mess up....money isn't a huge problem as al lthis will go down some time in the future when we sell 2 houses ....so i have even considered buying a land warfare resources research corp sbr ...

Yeah, you can fuck up most other guns by improperly setting headspace (which is the only thing I can think of that would cause a catastrophic failure other than manufacturing defects, metal fatigue, or severely hotloaded ammo) but since the headspace on an AR is set and tested by the barrel manufacturer there's nothing you can personally do that would cause any harm. The only mistakes you can make that I can think of when building an AR would be easily fixable and cause malfunctions, not damage.The AR-15 was designed by a subsidiary of a military aircraft company so high value was placed on attributes like ease of assembly and internal field maintenance by company-level armorers.

You will need some specialized AR tools (barrel nut wrench, buffer tube castle nut wrench, upper receiver vise block) which is what I was talking about. Normal tools needed include both normal and roll pin punches, needle-nose pliers or hemostats, a hammer, a workbench vise, allen keys, and screwdrivers.

[r-18]

hmmm it seems like something i might try then....what about our friends at the batfe ....they seem to be pushing the envelope of invasive over zealousness..
the other thing is that for about a grand i can get the most beautiful m1 garand i have ever seen ...it is a national match that has be redone in bright blue metal and the walnut stock is clear coated and looks outstanding...and 30-06 will do about anything you want it to ....kill a t-rex i you can find one...

[splattermark]

Originally Posted by r-18

hmmm it seems like something i might try then....what about our friends at the batfe ....they seem to be pushing the envelope of invasive over zealousness

I love our M1 for what it is but it's also big, heavy, and a little clumsy. You also aren't supposed to use modern production .30-06 in them, rather only the dwindling supply of surplus or specially-loaded clones of M2 ball ammo. Modern ammo has a much sharper pressure spike than the M1 was designed to withstand and as such it can bend the operating rod (which can be hard to find and are always expensive.)

The ATF doesn't care about AR-15s as long as you don't build an illegal automatic or short-barreled rifle, the lower receiver is what they consider to be the gun so that's what you'd have to pick up from an FFL. Everything else, even the upper half of the receiver, is just considered parts same as the barrel or stock. To get the lower you can either find a local FFL that has a good brand in stock at a decent price or order one online and receive it at an FFL that charges a reasonable transfer fee ($10-$20.) After that just buy what you need online and have it sent to your front porch, in most cases thanks to out of state retailers avoiding not just normal sales tax but the 10% excise tax levied on complete guns. Here's a rundown of what you'd need:

Upper Receiver Parts

The following are the basic components that will be the same in the upper no matter what you chose to build (carbine, SPR, service-length rifle.)

Receiver: Spike's Tactical flattop receiver, $99 shipped

Bolt carrier group:Spike's Tactical High-Pressure Tested/Magnetic Particle Inspected milspect bolt carrier group, $110 shipped

Gas Tube: Spike's Tactical melonite gas tube, $15 shipped. Which length you use depends on the barrel type.

These three parts come to $225 in total but the upper still needs several other parts, some I'm going to post multiple options since there can be very distinct differences in options.

Charging handles are used to operate the bolt. They're pretty simple, the two options are basic or basic with a large latch. I like the more expensive option because over the decades I'm going to use this gun, it's only $25 to upgrade a very essential control

Basic charging handle: $23 from Bravo Company USA. This option is similar to the model used in the M4.

Deluxe charging handle: $45, BCM Gunfighter. It's an improved charging handle with a larger latch because while the standard charging handle is fine it can be hard to access depending on what sights and optics you have on the rail. The Gunfighter's larger release latch allows for a much more positive operation of the handle, especially with magnified scopes or certain folding iron sights.

Barrels are, of course, barrels. I'm using Bravo Company as an example because they're good milspec barrels at a decent price but there are many brands. You can get just as good (possibly on sale if you look around) from other companies, and availability tends to change over time so it all depends on what well-reviewed brands you can find. I can't list everything so I'm going with something similar to my AR builds, which I'm extremely happy with.

16" Carbine Barrel, lightest and best handling option:$230, lightweight 1:7 M4 profile barrel.

18" Special Purpose Rifle barrel, a good mixture of weight/balance and the length needed for velocity:$300, stainess medium contour barrel

20" Service length rifle barrel, the barrel length for which 5.56 was designed. This is best option performance-wise but also the longest and heaviest:$300, stainless medium contour

There's also the option of a 24" Precision Rifle barrel, but velocity gains aren't that much more significant over 20" while it's hard to carry around and shoot offhand.

Low-profile gas block: $30 shipped, this is needed for use with a FF tube.

PWS FSC556 compensator:$100, highly recommended for offhand shooting though it's not as important for primarily shooting off a rest or bipod. Drastically decreases muzzle rise and recoil at the cost of increasing muzzle blast. If you don't think you need it a $10 A2 flash hider would work in it's place but it won't do much except suppress muzzle flash.

Free float handguard:$200, it's expensive but it's very durable, lightweight, and comes with an integraded flip-up sight. Comes with multiple rail sections that let you add accessories where you want them (or keep the tube bare for optimum low weight and balance if you don't.) While standard handguards are alright a FF tube gives you the longest grip, the most accessory mounting options, and the best accuracy.

Want a vertical foregrip? No you don't, you want this instead! Magpul AFG, $33. Much better longitudinal stability than a VFG.

With the stainless 18" or 20" barrels and all the fancy options that all that comes out to about to uh WOW $930, but that is all top-quality, milspec parts comparable to Colt or other top-tier manufacturers. There are cheaper options like ditching the FSC556 or substituting standard MOE handguards for the rail and they should fine, but they aren't nearly as pimp. (On the plus side thanks to the modular nature of the AR you can always make changes later.)

Next post I'll detail what goes into a lower!

EDIT: It figures, after typing all this shit out I got an email from Aimsurplus saying they're having a killer sale on complete Spike's Tactical carbine uppers uppers- $550 bucks for a milspec upper with a good compensator, free shipping, and 5 PMags. The only downside I can see is that it would be difficult to convert to a free float tube later on since the compensator is permanently attached so you'd have to perform some fairly involved machine work to remove it in order to replace the gas block.

[r-18]

all very interesting and informative i appreciate the effort your putting into this....it also appears you very familiar with gun smithing...hmmm at any rate ...it will be some time before all this comes down....it appears that a garand is no that hard to feed with all the lake city ammo around ....and parts are still there even if you have to look a bit...i really like the garand but my wife ...perhaps not so much....and due to the wifeu not being a"gun" person....she has taken professional firearms classes bu is not into it....she has a glock g23 that i bought for her to take her classes with ....but a rifle may be beyond he that is why i have considered a lever gun in the 30 cal range...it is les intimidating to her...and is still an effective weapon...a browning blr in ...say 270 would do just about anything...and being magazine loaded ...

[splattermark]

Originally Posted by r-18

all very interesting and informative i appreciate the effort your putting into this....it also appears you very familiar with gun smithing...hmmm at any rate ...it will be some time before all this comes down....it appears that a garand is no that hard to feed with all the lake city ammo around ....and parts are still there even if you have to look a bit...i really like the garand but my wife ...perhaps not so much....and due to the wifeu not being a"gun" person....she has taken professional firearms classes bu is not into it....she has a glock g23 that i bought for her to take her classes with ....but a rifle may be beyond he that is why i have considered a lever gun in the 30 cal range...it is les intimidating to her...and is still an effective weapon...a browning blr in ...say 270 would do just about anything...and being magazine loaded ...

Leverguns can be nice but keep in mind they're usually made as hunting rifles, which means they tend to make poor defensive or non-hunting recreational guns (especially ones in high-pressure, heavy-bullet calibers.) They're usually made light to carry long distances afield but tend to fire heavy-recoiling cartridges so while they're effective hunting tools they're usually not very enjoyable to use for anything but taking a couple shots at deer every year. On the other hand most semiautomatic rifles, especially those descended from automatic military designs, intrinsically reduce recoil thanks to the gas system and reciprocating action (not to mention the compensators that can be added to the threaded barrels many possess.)

If you do go with a levergun I'd recommend something that fires a shorter cartridge like a .357 or .44 magnum, since lever action + long cartridge = really long, awkward throw. My Henry in .44 is a joy to shoot, the lever is smooth and quick to work from the shoulder whereas my Marlin in .45-70 is much harder to operate. All lever actions are also hard to use from a bench since the lever swings so close to (or even into) the tabletop. Even though we've got a couple leverguns and I like them they don't see a ton of use since they were a solution to a problem that existed in the late 1800s only because self-loading rifles didn't start to mature until around WWI. The only reason they're still relevant today is because of the resurgence of cowboy action shooting and a sense of tradition and nostalgia among hunters, but the reality of it is that lever-actions are slower to operate than a semi but usually not as strong or accurate as a bolt action.

I know I must sound like some sort of paid AR-15 shill but they're really the best choice for an all-purpose, all-weather rifle. There's a reason they've become the best-selling semiauto rifles in the US, with even Remington releasing a line of AR-15 based short-action and AR-10 based long-action hunting rifles.